Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, Rob Baker Founder and Director of Tailored Thinking

Michelle Carvill:
Hello, and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, where I, Michelle Carvill, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how in this hyper-connected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate. You can find all episodes of the podcast together with show notes via our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts.
Michelle Carvill:
In this episode of the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, I'm delighted to interview Robert Baker. Rob is the founder and director of Tailored Thinking an evidence-based positive psychology, well-being, and HR consultancy. Prior to this, he has held a number of senior HR leadership roles at the University of Melbourne and University of Sheffield, as well as consultancy positions at RBT Connect and PWC. Rob's work, ideas, and research on how people can personalize work and bring their whole and best selves to the workplace has been presented at academic and professional conferences around the world. Rob is the author of Personalization at Work, published this year, 2020, with Kogan Page.
Michelle Carvill:
Okay. So, hi, Rob. Thank you so much for joining me on the Connected Leader Podcast.
Robert Baker:
The pleasure is mine, Michelle. Thanks so much for having me.
Michelle Carvill:
So I'm a Kogan Page author. You're a Kogan Page author, and it was the lovely team over at Kogan Page that put us together to say, introduced us. And I'm delighted that you're here on the podcast because this is all about being a connected leader, but of course, and your book is all about people crafting their own work, their own roles in the work that they do. But of course, part and parcel of how we work today does include digital technologies. I mean, business is largely digital now. And so social media technologies, I'm sure you've come across as part of the studies in the work and the research that you've done, but also I wanted to pick your brains about how you as a leader, the CEO and founder of your own organization, are also utilizing social technology. So we can go off on a few tangents here, Rob. So I'm pretty excited about this conversation.
Robert Baker:
Me too. Sounds fun.
Michelle Carvill:
Okay. So tell me a little bit about your own usage of social and maybe how you got started utilizing social and what you do.
Robert Baker:
Yeah, sure. In terms of social media for me, primarily it's Twitter, is the kind of thing that I probably in terms of I'm more social in terms of probably engaging with other people. And I've had more of a community of people that I access. And I've probably, I didn't check this before I started this kind of interview with you, but probably about three or four years I've been on there. And I find there's a mix there in terms of information that I get, in terms of some great people who share great links and articles and stories. And, but mixed within that is a kind of professional and personal network now of people that are friends with, that I've connected with, that I can learn from, but also peer support that we could have found that was in that. And you have some of that is I kind of overtly.
Robert Baker:
So in terms of the public facing as it were, but also through small direct messaging groups that we have set up. So that's one. I think we're seeing increasing, I'm not sure if this will count as social necessarily, but in terms of it's a group of people together, WhatsApp. So I think I'm finding that particularly around COVID in response to that. So a lot of the kind of professional groups that I have kind of joined with have connections in terms of the conversation changed a little bit from kind of business, as it were, to, "How are you doing?"
Robert Baker:
And I think something like WhatsApp, groups there where people were kind of sharing that and resources, and it was interesting, actually, a couple of groups that I'm part of that started very much as just a genuine, how are you doing actually evolved a little bit to kind of sharing ideas and thoughts from a professional basis as well. When that kind of needed to it's that kind of group adapted to it.
Robert Baker:
So I suppose that's not overtly... It's social in the fact that there's a community, a group there, but it's not necessarily a public. And then LinkedIn. So in terms of LinkedIn, I'm someone who still kind of, if I have an affinity over one I have more affinity with Twitter at the moment, than I do say LinkedIn. That's changing slightly in terms of, particularly with the book, people are finding LinkedIn as an easy way to make direct contact with me or share insights in the book. And that's a real delight. So I don't think anyone can, any author would ever kind of fail to have a massive smile on their face when someone either contacts them directly or puts a post and references the book and some of the ideas that they're exploring that I can share in the book, which is awesome.
Robert Baker:
So that's kind of really nice as well. I'm technically on Facebook, but not really active, and it's never something I've ever been involved in, in terms of that group. But that is something that, again, I'm curious about. I'm on Instagram. So in terms of going through my list now on my phone in terms of this area. And that is purely for play really, and whether it was a business and whether it's an individual, I'll look at doing that more as a route in terms of engaging and showing them information about the business. That's something to look at because I'm not doing much around there. And then, hey, this thing's like, and TikTok.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Robert Baker:
And I haven't done anything there, but we recently advertised for having a digital apprentice who's going to help with the digital content side of the business. And one of the applications, and actually she got the wrong log for this. But everyone had to submit a one minute video talking about a passion or strength they had. And she delivered a TikTok which was quite cool.
Michelle Carvill:
Interesting.
Robert Baker:
Which was really nice and a bit different and creative. And I'm looking forward to kind of seeing that zest and creativity in the team, in the future. I think, again, my use of social, one of things I realized I'm not, I'm not big [giffer 00:06:00]. I'm not very, in terms of, I'm not someone who uses later videos and other things, and that's probably my personal style. But I'm also in awe of people who are a bit more creative and push the platforms in a really positive way.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. But you're out there and you're active and you're sharing your knowledge, your insights, you're building connections. I mean, they are key tools now aren't they? To connect leaders, connect individuals with their audiences, with their teams, like you say, with peer groups, with other thought leaders. I mean they are staple tools and it's kind of business as usual. It's not a new thing.
Michelle Carvill:
So one of the things that I suppose that when you were talking about them, we just touched on in the pre-chat before we came on, was this concept of work, this concept of HR professionals who I'm sure are also utilizing social and digital technologies just as you did. You interviewed people, but of course the TikTok video kind maybe caught your attention more than maybe some of the other videos that you saw. So that creativity comes through. So we're all kind of watching and utilizing these channels. With regards to work, and one of the things, when I was reading a little bit about your book, you talked about work is broken. Tell me a little bit more about that, Rob. Because I'd like to touch on some of those aspects.
Robert Baker:
Well, I think that in the book, and anyone can do this now, if you sit in front of Google and just type in my job is, and let the auto suggestion kick in for Google. And I did this a couple of days ago with a group. The thing is, my work is killing me. My work is boring. My work is soulless. It doesn't look like great reading. So Google tells us one thing and Google is kind of bringing this information together. But from a more empirical perspective, there's papers consistently showing that individuals, when you interview them and ask them anonymously, they're not fully engaged and excited by the work that they're doing.
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Robert Baker:
And I think so from my perspective, in terms of it being broken, this is saying there's a disconnect here between actually the... In one respect organizations are saying we want to create great work for people, we want to create great work and work with people who can do great things for the organization. And yeah, for whatever reason, and I can talk about reasons in a second, people are saying, actually, this isn't working for us. And I think one of the biggest disconnects, and this is probably linked into your podcast, is around people feel that they're maybe not able to tap into their true selves in terms of the work that they're doing. So they can't always bring their talents and the strengths to the work they're doing.
Robert Baker:
A lot of the traditional, if you look at how work is structured, the long tail of it comes back to over 200 years or so to scientific management and very much hierarchical, top-down, the best decisions always come from one way. And yet we know that that isn't necessarily from an academic perspective, the best way of tapping into the ideas, the talents, the strengths of the people that work for those individuals. It does work to a certain extent, and that's why they keep replicating these structures. But I see a bit of a tipping point, well I hope it's a tipping point, where we're seeing that actually people are recognizing work can be done in different ways. And if there was any silver lining, I suppose since this terrible COVID crisis, it's the fact that actually organizations are having to take a step back and actually saying, "Oh, hang on. We can maybe do things differently. We can do things faster than we wanted to."
Robert Baker:
So, some of my clients have done business transformation projects where they've been doing things at home, like in two weeks when they thought it was going to take them two years to do it. And it was something they had always felt they'd never do.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Robert Baker:
And people have been trusted to it. And I think the wider challenge with the COVID stuff is that that's come with a cost in terms of, Kevin's tired now because of that. So a lot of people have done it, but I think, wouldn't it be amazing if we didn't require a terrible pandemic to actually force people to kind of act and do it differently? What would happen if we just created that as business as usual and gave people the energy and support to do that? And that's what I think needs to happen in terms of the future of work.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. I love that. And it's so true. I mean, I've mentioned it before in this podcast, somebody said, "What was our digital transformation? Was it the CEO? Was it the COO?" No, it was C-19 that has really been the catalyst for this shift. And the other thing that you mentioned Rob is that, and it's come up a few times on the podcast when I've interviewed people and I've interviewed some of the CEOs. And they said what they found through the digital technologies is, and having this connection with the audiences, being visible, being accessible via social technologies, whatever that looks like, whether that's internally, whether that's Twitter or whatever other platforms that they choose to be on, is that they've been listening in and listening to what employees are saying and getting insights from people they would never ordinarily be able to connect with. Either because of hierarchy, they just don't get to go into the boardroom and have those conversations, or indeed geography.
Michelle Carvill:
You know, it's not physically feasible for somebody or viable for the CEO to be in those particular regions and listening to those conversations all the time. But they've picked up on some great feedback, some great insights and some great ideas and innovation that they just wouldn't ordinarily be able to tap into.
Robert Baker:
Absolutely. One example I can often give to people is the kind of reservoir of talent and ideas that sit underneath and unseen as it were, underneath most organizations. And it's a case of how can we tap into that? And I see the job as a leader, the job as a manager, and certainly an HR function is around actually, how can we tap into that, how can we do some mining in a positive, responsible way?
Robert Baker:
And actually tap into that. And I think for whatever reason, because maybe as the seismic shifts of what's happening is that now people have actually created fault lines and maybe some of those ideas have been able to float to the top. And then you're saying that the leaders are actually maybe seeing that in pockets and isolation in different ways. And so it's ideally again, it would be great if we could mine and tap into this in a responsible, positive way and that hasn't happened.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Robert Baker:
But I'm hoping that enables us to realize the ideas are there and we can use them.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. I mean, it's almost the wisdom of the crowd, isn't it? How can you tap into that? I see social technology as almost more powerful internally within organizations because it's almost like a... I see it like a connecting glue, it's kind of like neurons, like a brain, isn't it? It's got to be connected at many levels. And the synapses, all kind of helping and triggering one another. And if there's nothing connecting all of that, and even if it is down to the HR department to be responsible for that, that's a lot on their shoulders. Whereas if the whole organization, I suppose, is learning together, sharing together, got this knowledge constantly. The opportunity for that knowledge to surface, or mine, I like the idea of mining the knowledge within. Then social technologies can really enable that to happen because I'm not quite sure how that happens without that connectivity.
Robert Baker:
I agree. I think the other thing just to build on that idea of the synapses in the brain, and that's constantly happening as well, and it's organic, and it's not necessarily contained. It's something that happens naturally. I think when I see good digital, internally or externally in terms of sharing of communications, ideas, it's actually something that's evolving. And that it's responsive and it's, using the word agile, which we probably...
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Robert Baker:
It's something that's not being constrained, not being managed. And I think sometimes when people are going to tap into this and a traditional way, it's in a very staged survey, one-off thing that doesn't necessarily tap into the needs or the zeitgeist at that particular point in time. Which again, you're seeing spilling over at the moment in terms of COVID.
Robert Baker:
And that's why, again, I'm fascinated by things such as Slack in terms of how they have another kind of internal messaging platforms have accelerated over this time, and then how use those. For better or for worse. And I think we're still learning. I think that the challenge with this digital stuff, they've been around for some of these things for six months, a year, some of us for two, three, four, five years, and yet we've been communicating in another way for many of us for decades.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Robert Baker:
And by that very nature, we're going to do it and we're still learning. We're going to make mistakes. We're not always going to do it as well as we possibly can do.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Robert Baker:
I think we need to be humble about that and recognize it, but there's tremendous power there as well, those technologies.
Michelle Carvill:
Huge, huge. And I suppose I've been writing about it for, for 10, 12 years, you know? So for me, the curse of knowledge, it's kind of like, "Oh, finally, it's all happening." So that's good. Let's talk then about digital, because the key with digital and this, as you said, if it can happen organically, and it's happening all the time, and these synapses, and all this intelligence is naturally flowing to the surface and we can mine it effectively. Which we still need to learn how to do that effectively. Then it's kind of always on, right? Isn't it. And then that leads to whilst we might have all this wonderful connection, which eradicates the disconnection. In one way, people can feel more connected, more heard, more involved, more aligned with what they need to be aligned with. Of course, there's also that it's always on. That's great, but there is this always on pressure as well, isn't there? This opportunity of not switching off. Where do we get to with this bit?
Robert Baker:
I'll give you an example. Recently I was chatting to someone, a graduate who I know, that I was supporting in terms of looking for a job and delighted that she's got one. She had a couple of false starts with COVID. It's an international company she's working for, it's fantastic. But one of her reflections when we were talking about this, only a week ago, is the fact that her internal messaging board, because of this, is literally 24/7. So if she wanted to, she could never unplug from that, and just constantly feed it. And she was saying herself that she recognizes and knows that her colleagues are sometimes later on this than she is, is that a good or bad thing? And already she's two or three weeks in the job, and she's starting to think about for me, what are the boundaries I want to put on this?
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Robert Baker:
What really matters in terms of organizations, do people care about what they're doing? And it was only when I said to her, "Does this ever stop?" And she's like, "No." You kind of need to think about actually when you're going to step on or step off of this.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Robert Baker:
For your own personal kind of sanity and your wellbeing. But also as well, it's something that, if you're constantly distracted, if you're engaging with this kind of work and not doing it deliberately, then it's a distraction that gets in the way of other work you're going to do. So actually it can be an impediment to your productivity as well. So why is it we can have tremendous opportunities, digital social platforms can also have the opposite effect.
Robert Baker:
So I think one of the things that is something that I'm still learning about this is around actually, what's a smart digital strategy for you as an individual based on what you want to do? Is it based on what you want to contribute, based on how you want to engage, but maybe also from a career perspective in terms of this, in terms of your job, how you can learn. So there's so much opportunity to it and there's so much of it as well. That's the other thing is that actually what's your strategy as it were. And I think a lot of people just don't have a strategy, so they just kind of basically don't do particularly well.
Robert Baker:
And as a consequence of that, maybe it doesn't work as well for them as an individual or in terms of a wellbeing perspective or from a professional perspective either. And so I think we'd hopefully see more recognition if that's a skill, maybe in terms of a job. You'd never see on a job description saying the ability to kind of manage and sort through the communication, and contribute to those an effective positive way. But actually that's a really valuable skill in today's climate.
Michelle Carvill:
It absolutely is because... And the thing is, we've seen all of the studies and the Cambridge Analytica, and now there's one running, I think currently on Netflix, everybody keeps saying to me, you've got to watch it. You've got to watch it, showcasing that these technologies have been designed to be addictive. So we get our dopamine hits. And as you say, if you're not in there, you feel, are we missing out? Have I not served my clients? Have I let the team down? Am I... So it's all got to be managed in a way that works for you, because it's got to be on your terms. And sometimes that on your terms, hasn't been thought through, worked out, those boundaries haven't been set.
Michelle Carvill:
There is no formula because it's all so very fluid. And so you've got to find your own feet with that. So it's difficult, it's an art actually, and a real discipline to say, no, we are... And I've done tasks and I've been part of schemes where it's like, write three times a day. That's all you can have. You've got to get your screen time down. You've got to do this, you've got to do that. But it's a challenge. What about for organizations and how they manage that with their employees? Is this something that you touched on when you were working with the HR professionals? Is it a challenge that they're finding?
Robert Baker:
I don't think necessarily we're recognizing per se as a challenge at the moment, but I think actually it's something that we have wider recognition of, and certainly something, I think we need to have a view in terms of how we support people. So if you look at HR, it's been their function of supporting people to do their best in their work, which is the way that I take it, then absolutely in terms of expectations, in terms of an output, someone, an input, is really, really important. And part of that input and output conversation, you need to think about actually, where are you connecting to different communications channels, digital channels. So effectively that could be email, that could be your Slack or your teams, or it could be social media. You need to have a conversation about it.
Robert Baker:
I don't think many of us necessarily do because we're still finding our feet, it's happened so quickly around us that we don't really know. So I think that's an interesting question. I don't have a necessarily a fully formed answer, but the thing I do think that when, and this comes to pretty much anything, is being deliberate in terms of understanding what your own rules are and why, and being clear about how you've developed those can be tremendously helpful in terms of communicating. And I think it has to come from yourself. So again, I've been part of this thing saying you should only use these things, but you're almost being told to do that. That's a top down thing, and actually we need to have more conversations where we're saying, "What's going to work well for you? What's realistic to you as an individual?"
Michelle Carvill:
For me, yeah.
Robert Baker:
And treat it as an experiment as well. So saying actually I'm going to do one day or three days. How does that feel? Is that useful? What did I miss? If I had contributed more, would that have added value to me, or would it add the value to someone else? And be experimental about it. And I don't think we necessarily do that. So I'd say you've got to find something that works for you. And be aware of the fact that just because it's working at this moment in time, doesn't mean to say necessarily, it's going to also be working for you in three months, six months time as well. So just have that consideration that you just need to be constantly checking in with yourself, I suppose, in terms of, is this working for you? Is it working for the people that you're trying to support or communicate with or engage with as well, in terms of what's happening.
Michelle Carvill:
Yep. And that's regardless of whether you're the CEO... As I say, on the podcast, there's a number of people that have said that they limit their time, that it's almost like reading that I'll get up in the morning, I'll have breakfast, I'll check in. I'll have a break at lunchtime and I'll check in. Gets to mid-afternoon, and just as you might be thinking, I'll just tune into what's going on in the news, it just becomes part of the rhythm of what they do. It's not everything they do. It's just a component of what they do.
Michelle Carvill:
And I suppose that is about us all finding the way around how it works for each one of us individually, wherever we sit. Because I remember not so long ago, there were organizations that were banning people being on their social technologies at work, and not being able to access them at all, because there was this element that it is just so disruptive. And of course, there's that element of finding the balance, isn't there?
Robert Baker:
Yeah, absolutely. And again, anything where an individual's saying, "I'd love to do this." And organizations saying, "You can't do this." And again, that comes back to this command and control discussion we've had. So I'm not saying necessarily you shouldn't have expectations, but again, I'd love to get to a situation where we can have more of an adult nuanced conversation rather than black or white. Which I think is often the way that we default to. And again, I think one of the things, again, for the current climate to bring it back to this and to COVID, is about it hasn't been black or white, we've all been navigating from the gray. And because of that, I've seen at least people doing that in a very supportive, collaborative, forgiving way, recognizing that and I think we should just be taking that approach to the organization, the status quo as well.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. And it's almost like whatever tools help you get the job done, right? And for some people like the girl that you interviewed, TikTok was the tool that helped her get that job done. We got to put a video, how can I do this? I'm going to use the tools that are available to me and use my creativity and showcase that and get the job done. If you're on a research project and you can do some research using some of the Twitter tools that are out there, and that's going to speed up you going through Google and other formats, then if you know how to use those tools, you'll be using those tools to get the job done. Doesn't it? It's almost like having the toolbox, but not being restrained as to which tools you use. As long as you get the job done. Some of these tools can be really, really useful.
Robert Baker:
Absolutely. And I think again, even if they're not being necessarily useful other than to actually just allow that person to spark into somebody else's way of doing.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Robert Baker:
If that's a useful break, I'm going to stop doing what I'm doing. For 10 minutes I'm just going to laugh at some video.
Michelle Carvill:
Cats.
Robert Baker:
Exactly. That's great. Good for you. I think again, it's what works for you. And in terms of research stuff, talking about how you can use social and things. One of the most astounding studies that I found that was presented with a colleague at the University of Melbourne when I was studying for my Master's in Psychology, and it's a researcher, [Peggy Kern 00:00:26:07] and she was involved in a project with Twitter. And actually what they did in Twitter was they were looking at population. So they had access to large datasets of people's answers in terms of Twitter.
Robert Baker:
And they coded these words as being positive or negative, basic broadly in terms of this. And then they scraped the data in terms of different regions of whether actually the majority of words were being positive or negative.
Michelle Carvill:
Oh yeah.
Robert Baker:
I'm looking at the outcomes of this. And they found that they could predict, or there's a relationship between heart disease and medical negativity. Medical diseases related to people's Twitter content and social media content. And the fact that actually the people who presented more negative words were more upset, more emotional-
Michelle Carvill:
Angry.
Robert Baker:
Angry, yeah. Angry is a good... And how do the relationship with those high levels of kind of correlate to disease in that aspect?
Michelle Carvill:
Wow.
Robert Baker:
So in terms of how social media... We're sort of learning about it, it's not causation, but it's a way of reflecting who we are, I suppose. For better or for worse. And I think there is definitely some better. And there's definitely some worse as well.
Michelle Carvill:
Some worse, yeah. I don't know if you know Brian Solis, but I've read a few of his books back in the day and he refers to social media as sociology, not technology. He said, "It's so much more sociology." All we're doing is vocalizing and documenting the sociology that ordinarily happens, or allowing us to voice it in these ways. So yeah it is a social endeavor, isn't it?
Robert Baker:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's in a certain sense a mirror, I think [inaudible 00:00:28:00].
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Robert Baker:
To a certain extent, sometimes people are using it as an avatar, I suppose, and it's complicated and complex, as are people. So in terms of that analogy, I like that as well. Yeah I think we're still learning. As far as I'm concerned, we're saying we're still learning about it, still making mistakes, but I think it's got tremendous power from a work and a personal perspective.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, it has. So if you could give advice to somebody about using this in work to support them, have you got any gems or any advice or tips that you would say to someone about how to manage their social media or where social media technology fits in for their work, maybe about their wellbeing, their boundaries?
Robert Baker:
I think just have a conversation with someone. I think maybe something is part of an induction or conversation with the manager. I think it would be good if you as a manager or leader actually understood whether your colleagues were interested in social media, how they're using social media, do they have a social media account or not? Because it's something to be curious about. And I think bringing that curiosity more, it would be a case of actually, how does that work for you and how could it work for the business in terms of the work that you're doing? A lot of people, as we know through our lives, work is a massive part of who we are.
Michelle Carvill:
It is.
Robert Baker:
For better or for worse, as it were, but that's the case. And so again, when people are communicating things on social or LinkedIn, a lot of people do talk about professional work related things as well. I think it's something to be mindful of and aware and have an active conversation about. So in terms of specific tips, I just say start having a conversation. For you as an individual, I would take a step back in terms of saying, "Why are you engaging with social? What are you hoping to get out of it?"
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Robert Baker:
And contribute I suppose to others. And the question you should be asking yourself maybe is how is it adding value to you? And how are you adding value to other people? Because one of the things I think... So for me, and this is very specific to me as an individual and yourself, as authors, in a way what we've been doing is just trying to share our knowledge.
Michelle Carvill:
That's right.
Robert Baker:
And it's almost passing it on, effectively saying, "I've done this." And I see social media platforms as almost another way for sharing those opportunities to pass on knowledge and ideas. And so we have some amount of responsibility to do it. But that's my personal perspective for this case. If I've got this knowledge and ideas, why not share them? And you don't have to necessarily take it or not, you can leave it. Or you can just say, "That's even better because I don't want to work in a vacuum." But it's something that can be tremendously powerful, but it always comes down to individual. How is it adding value to you, and how is it adding value to other people?
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, exactly. And if it isn't, you're not forced to do it, you know?
Robert Baker:
[inaudible 00:31:06] forcing a change. I've been in courses where, and I know that this is a continuance of what you did, where you get invited and say like, "This is something you should do." And I think, again, I would always be kind of concerned or curious about anything that you're telling someone, "This is what you have to do."
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Robert Baker:
No again, if it's not something that is not you, then it's probably not going to necessarily end up well. That said, you may be surprised yourself, and actually find as I have done. So with Twitter, being bowed over and surprised by the warmth and empathy and connections that come from it, in a way that I'd never expected. But it's not something I don't think necessarily you you should or could, or can force people to do.
Michelle Carvill:
No. And I think that's a bit of a challenge now. I remember reading many, many years ago and I still can't cite the research. So if anybody ever listens and finds this research, please do tag me in on it. But it was definitely by Cisco. And it was a piece of research that they'd run that was saying that the future leaders will have to be competent in social technologies. They'll have to be. It's just going to be part of the role. You are going to have to embrace these technologies because they're pervading our lives at a rate of... And as the leader you're going to have to.
Michelle Carvill:
So whilst I agree that you shouldn't be forced to do it, you definitely need to know about these technologies, in my view, if you are responsible for people who are going to be using these technologies. You don't want to be on the back foot. You want to know what you can mine and how they work. And the curiosity... Be curious, that's part of the role as well, isn't it? So understanding those things.
Robert Baker:
I'd certainly say there's a responsibility to understand how people are communicating, like whether that's your employees, your customers, anyone effectively, you need to be aware and across that.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Robert Baker:
And I think there's also, I would say to go further, there's a certain amount of expectation now, I think in terms of certain leadership from people, from your customers and from other stakeholders that actually you are accessible in some form, or your views on certain topics are known and social obviously is one way, an easy way for people to do that. So therefore it's not... It would be almost a surprise these days, if you can't find certain leadership positions accessible on social in some respects.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Robert Baker:
So it's something I think, absolutely I agree with you, there needs to have an understanding of it and in some areas, an expectation that you are engaging with it as well.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, absolutely. And we've seen that that drives trust, employees enjoy it, that they find the people accessible, it drives that connection, that cohesion. So we're coming towards the end of this podcast, Rob, thank you so much for sharing those insights and your views and about how work is changing. And this idea which I really like and love that people can craft their own, utilize their strengths, be used, be valued. And I know that this is a big part of what you talk about in your book. So I've got some questions that I like to close with. They're quite enormous questions, but I don't give you very much time for them. So if you could change one thing in the world, Rob, what would it be?
Robert Baker:
I think I'd just like everyone to be kind. That's what I've been saying, and be more patient. So that's the one thing I would do. If I could squeeze in another, just in terms of that, I would love to give everyone the permission or the energy to do one thing they want to do, but just haven't been able to do. So that could be giving up smoking, that could be starting running, or even cleaning the shower, I don't know. But just amazing, to give someone a gift, to be able to say, just knock something off, something you really want to do as an individual, that for whatever reason you haven't been able to do. And I think that will be transformative in a small way. And I could wipe out COVID as well, but I'm being cheeky now and stealing too many wishes.
Michelle Carvill:
There's a lot there. But I love that. And I love that about giving people... Because if you do the one thing, then that leads to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. So just that positive cycle continues. I love that. And what about books? Do you read a lot of books? I know you write books, but do you read a lot?
Robert Baker:
I do read a lot of books. At the moment I feel a bit punch drunk if I'm honest with you from the research and the book. I've got a big list of books that I've got on my bedside table that I haven't kind of worked my way through as much at this moment. So I haven't gotten off the top of my head reading. One thing I know that I'm looking forward to that's just coming out is a book by Dan Cable who I really admire, he's from London Business School. And it's called Exceptional, around again, tapping into your strengths and power. That's something that I'm looking forward to reading. And I pre-ordered that, so that's... His previous book Alive at Work was brilliant. And I'm sure no doubt that his follow up will be too.
Michelle Carvill:
Fantastic. Okay. We'll look out for that one. And what about the best piece of advice you've been given to date?
Robert Baker:
Probably, what's the best word of advice? I don't know. It's difficult. I was thinking about, "Don't worry about it." That's probably one. "It's not as bad as you think it will be" is probably one. And I think for me, it's around probably listen more. So I think, yeah, that's probably the best advice in terms of being really reflective about how much you contribute to how much you listen. And even on this interview, I probably recognize, and I've still got something to learn in that respect. So it's just something continuous for me.
Michelle Carvill:
Oh for us all. For us all, it's a great, great art, isn't it? The art of listening. And fortunately social enables us to do a lot of listening. Too many people don't do enough listening with the technologies, but that's wonderful. So Rob, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing those insights and coming on the podcast. It's been great.
Robert Baker:
Thank you, my pleasure. It's been really good fun. Thanks so much for some interesting questions.
Michelle Carvill:
You've been listening to the Get Social Connected Leader podcast. Thank you to my guest. And indeed thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it. And indeed, subscribe to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms and all episodes are also on our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts.
Michelle Carvill:
You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site too. So be sure to check those out. So for now, from me, Michelle Carvill, your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in and goodbye. Oh, P.S. If you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me, Michelle@carvillcreative.co.uk.