Get Social Connected Leader podcast with Simon Kingsnorth, Author of Digital Marketing Strategy and Founder of Simon Kingsnorth Ltd
Michelle:
Hello, and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast where I, Michelle Carvill interview business leaders around the practicalities of how in this hyper-connected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate.
Michelle:
You can find all episodes of the podcast together with show notes via our website, carvillcreative.co.uk forward slash podcasts. In this episode of the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, I'm delighted to interview Simon Kingsnorth. Simon is a digital marketing expert with 20 years experience across all areas of digital and most offline channels too. He is the author of the international bestseller, Digital Marketing Strategy, now in its second edition. He's also a strategy expert and experienced consultant who has helped many leading brands develop and implement winning strategies across digital transformation, growth, branding, proposition development, campaign management, marketing, communications, loyalty, and much more.
Michelle:
Simon is also a regular speaker and a contributing author to other books and publications in the field. So Simon, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
Simon:
Absolute pleasure.
Michelle:
So we met probably a couple of months ago now, didn't we, amid...We're still moving through COVID, but I suppose a little earlier on, and I'm an author with Kogan Page, you're an author with Kogan page and they invited us to do a webinar to their audience and that webinar was all about digital strategy and how that's changing and tactics during this time.
Simon:
Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, the digital strategy as you know, is always changing anyway but let's say the first nine months of this year, certainly has been quite drastic. And I think that's, in many ways, accelerated a lot of really good transformation, a lot of good changes also accelerated of course the whole work from home culture and it helped a lot of platforms and businesses, but of course it's harmed a lot as well and many have had to adapt their strategies. And I've worked with a few this year who have had to completely rethink the way they're working. But I think that there are obviously, it's obviously a very difficult time for many people, but yeah, if you were going to try and find a silver lining from a digital marketing perspective, it's that it's accelerated a few things that may otherwise have taken a few years to get going.
Michelle:
Yeah. And that's a good point because there are, we've seen more, you know, this is the Connected Leader podcast. I talk about experiences and tactics for leaders becoming more visible, becoming more connected with their teams, with their audiences. You yourself, you're utilizing social media. Do you want to just, how did you, I mean, as an author, were you kind of forced into utilizing these channels or was it something as a digital marketing and digital strategist, you'd been already engaged with for a while?
Simon:
Yeah, I guess I sort of fell into it originally, so it's been an evolution for me more than anything else. So it wasn't like I wrote a book and thought, "Oh, I better go and do a load of social media." So yeah, thankfully I had some presence on social media already, which is a little bit talking about business, a little bit personal. And I think when the first edition of the book came out back in 2016 I think it was, that thankfully it took off quite quickly and that made me think, "Okay, I need to perhaps take this a bit more seriously, I suppose." So, from then I started with "Okay, what should I talk about? What should my content strategy be?" All these good things, but you know, I'm normally buried in projects so I actually have very little time to manage my own social media as much as I preach to others about it and help them manage theirs, I tend to let mine fall by the wayside a little bit, which is a sin really.
Simon:
But, for me, I guess what I've found with social media, what I've done over the years is I've moved away from just shouting and talking about the book and myself and various marketing points. And I guess doing a couple of things, one is to try and offer some actual interesting insights and advice, which is far more valuable than talking about myself. Let's face it, so that's always a good thing to do, but also I think I've just generally moved away from sharing information, not that I don't, but that's not my priority.
Simon:
My priority with social media has been much more about conversations and listening and I often tell people that when we think about social media, we forget sometimes that it includes the word social in it and what does social really mean? It's about having a two-way conversation. It's not about talking to someone until they get sick of you [inaudible 00:05:03]. We've all got one of those friends and no one really wants to listen to them. So for me, it's much more about getting involved in groups and communities and conversations and listening to other people's opinions, absorbing those and sharing opinions.
Simon:
And I think that gets the best possible insight and output and I think everyone benefits from that. So for me over time, it's moved from just posting about digital marketing to much more getting engaged, listening, and having those two way conversations. Then of course you get the benefit of learning and following the trends and everything else that comes along with social as well. But, yeah, for me, it's much more about the community and the conversation than it is just about posting.
Michelle:
And do you find, so I would say that Twitter is a great channel for that. Is that one of your favorites? It is mine.
Simon:
Twitter. I have a very love, hate relationship as I think probably many people do. What was it a comedian said years ago? Twitter is the place that people who've got nothing to say, go to say it to people who aren't listening. I think it's a fantastic description of some parts of Twitter, certainly. Other parts of Twitter, as we know, are quite dark and quite aggressive and best it steered away from, from a business perspective certainly. So, I think Twitter is excellent at having very short snappy engagement, really seeing what's trending in as close to real time as possible, really and being able to get involved in communities to a certain extent.
Simon:
What it doesn't do as well as some other channels it is for me, is the group side and I think LinkedIn has some fantastic dedicated groups with some really engaged, really active people who are willing to share very deep levels of insight.
Simon:
And whilst you do get a bit of that on Twitter, I find that LinkedIn is a better platform for that. If you've got a specific niche you want to be talking about, I think that's a great platform. Facebook again is a bit different, much more on the, I guess, the casual side. But as a result, a bit more human, a bit more emotional than... Well, can anything be more emotional than Twitter, I suppose is a good question but it's certainly more human, more of a friendly community in lots of ways.
Simon:
So, I guess you can use all the different channels in different ways, there's many more you can talk about. They all have slightly different needs [inaudible 00:07:32], say slightly different users of course as well and profiles, but I think Twitter is certainly a core channel for me, but every social media channel is different and I think they all play their part in the mix.
Michelle:
Perfect. And so when you're working on projects, when you're consulting with teams, inevitably you may be giving certain advice, I don't know what those projects extend to, but do you ever end up giving advice to leaders about what they need to be doing with social media, and whether or not they need to be more visible, more connected, more accessible? Is that something that maybe has changed for you over the last couple of years or maybe the last few months?
Simon:
Yeah, I do. I absolutely do. So I obviously I work on a number of projects at any one time, I suppose, if I can get the words out and I have done over the years, so I was having a conversation with a business in the States just last week where we were talking about it's a new business, it's just starting up and we were talking about what social media looks like as part of the digital strategy. And whilst we talked about how they need to develop a really compelling content strategy and that needs to cover all the core areas of the business and the industry and anything more relevant, more broadly in the world on how they should use certain channels, both organically and from a paid perspective, one of the key messages for me was that the guys involved in this starting out this business they need to get actively involved themselves.
Simon:
And that's critical and that plays a number of different roles in the overall scheme of the business, I suppose. So yeah. Social media is internal and external. So I think there's an element of setting an example for the business and so those leaders out there engaging in social media, the more they do that, the more they're going to encourage the staff to do the same thing. And it also gives a sense of pride to the staff to see the leaders of the business out there, talking about the business and being proud enough to shout about the positive things in the business is great. Obviously those messages can also be rewarding to staff. They can talk about can talk about what a great job the staff are doing, talk about the customer, talk about new products so, it brings a lot of engagement and of course the more they do that, then the more everyone in the business starts to do that.
Simon:
The louder the voice and the more reach you get as well. So I think it's a critical role for me, every employee in a business should be getting on social media and talking about their business to some extent. And of course it has the benefit of acquiring customers as well. I mean, let's be honest, that's the obvious benefit, but for me that brand development and the pride internally that everyone gets and when everyone's willing to shout about the business, I think adds huge value to it, yep.
Michelle:
Absolutely. And of course the intelligence, I mean, I know when I've interviewed a few leaders, they've been very open about that just by watching what their competitors were doing, just by watching the responses as to how things were... when launches happened, how things went. Whether it was successful or not, they gained their own kind of real world firsthand intel as to what's really going on out there. And maybe it's not statistically accurate, but it's enough of a sample to give them a steer.
Simon:
Yeah, that's right, yeah. So I think it's a positive and a negative. I think you can watch what's going on in social media with your competitors and get a bit carried away and say, ""Well, they're doing this, so we should be doing this." You always have to remember that you don't know whether what they're doing is actually working or not.
Simon:
So, I think it's absolutely right that the amount of research and data you can get back from social media to steer, either your social media strategy or much more broadly your digital strategy is hugely valuable and of course, if you tie that together through some of your marketing tech stack with the rest of your activity, you can really start to see who is engaging, how are they engaging? Out of those, the ones that are engaging the most are they, are they converting the most or the least?
Simon:
And you can really start to paint a really accurate picture about the power of social media to you and your competitors and then of course there's the SEO benefit as well, of course. The more engagement you can get tracked straight back to your brand, of course, has the SEO benefit too, so yeah, huge benefits to everyone doing more on social media. No question.
Michelle:
So what resistance do you come up against? What objections resistance are typical when you're speaking to leaders about getting connected with social media?
Simon:
I think fear is the one that I come across the most and that it tends to be in the larger organizations. The smaller ones are usually more willing to jump onto social media and it's more about actually putting them back a little bit and saying, "Whoa, hang on. Let's just control this. Let's make sure we've got some good policies in place and we've done some training to make sure no one's saying anything they shouldn't be saying or linking to something they shouldn't be linking to, for example.
Simon:
But I think in the larger organizations, it tends to be a little bit more around fear because you know, when you have a large brand, having that brand damaged can of course mean significant financial impact on the business. So, or me, that is the one I still come across. It's less and less common as time goes by, I find, but there's still certainly a nervousness around, "Well, hang on a minute. If we let this guy go on social media and he says something wrong, suddenly we're going to have huge complaints and fines."
Simon:
And, it's extremely rare that it happens, but generally that's covered off through really good effective social media training that can take you through the, not just the this is best practice but also rules and regulations, which of course differs by country and by channel and everything as well. But yeah, I think with some good training, you can factor that one in, but that tends to be the biggest concern I come up against, to be honest with you, most people are quite keen.
Michelle:
Yeah, which is good, which is shifting. And I suppose another aspect that I often hear is this, "Well, I'm keen, but I'm not quite sure what I'm going to say." And, "What do I do? Do I do my personal life? Do I do my work life? What's that balance?" Have you experienced that? And what's your kind of take on that?
Simon:
Yeah. It's a really good question. And I think it's different for everyone. I mean, personally, I have dedicated channels for my professional side versus my personal side. That's probably more of a comment on how bizarre my personal personality is and I don't really want everyone to see that, but I think having said that there's a real gain in humanity. And this is something I talk about quite a lot is that people often say we're living in the digital age. Now, I don't really believe that. I believe we're living in the human age. And I think digital tools have enabled us to connect so much more than we ever have done and that hasn't removed the humanity at all. In fact, I think it's increased it. I think we just have, we're able to communicate more and we're able to be more human to each other. As a result, consumers have much power, hence reviews, et cetera, which of course has a certain social element to it as well.
Simon:
So, I think the power is absolutely with the consumer and the humanity piece is important. So if you are going to put your message across, I think there is a certain art form to being able to think, "Okay, I'm using this channel for both personal and professional. How do I just walk that line, so as my personal profile isn't ridiculous and doesn't remove all my authority, but also it's not so dull that it looks almost conceited."
Simon:
So I think there's a blend there, but personally, I feel if you can, if it's possible, then it's a great thing to do, to have someone blending both their personal and their professional life, because it just adds that element of humanity to a leader, but it is risky and it's not for everyone.
Simon:
So I think if you're not entirely comfortable with communications, if you're not a natural communicator [crosstalk 00:15:55] some of us aren't, then I think it is safer to separate the two. So that's my personal view and as I say, I personally like to keep things like politics and religion and anything contentious out of the professional space. So if you're going to talk about those, then absolutely separate the accounts and keep your personal one private. But, if you are going to be one of the key artists who's able to blend the both and walk that line very carefully, then it's nice to have that humanity. So I hope that makes sense.
Michelle:
It does. And I love that, I fully concur with that Simon, about the human connection, this digital age, the human age. It is enabling us to connect more. What's your view on that connection with, from the leader connecting directly with the employees, directly connecting with customers. Some would say well, that's not the role of the leader to be having those direct conversations or to be that directly accessible. What's your position on that?
Simon:
Yeah. I just don't think that's the case anymore as a rule. I mean, obviously if you're a CEO or an MD, you can't get bogged down in having every customer conversation of course, because you'd never get a chance to do your job. So I completely appreciate that and I've been in that position myself many times, but that's not really the point.
Simon:
If you're in a larger organization, you can have someone running your social media profile for you, of course. So, they can take those comments offline, or you can give people templates to say, thanks for your comment you need to take this offline so give us a call or email us or WhatsApp us or whatever it might be. But, my feeling is that actually that humanity and that connection with the customer is a very powerful thing.
Simon:
And I think if you feel like someone at the top is paying attention to you and you get a sense for who they are, I mean, in a B2B relationship or a B2B business, that's really compelling. Say, "Okay, we're going to be working with these guys and I feel there's a connection here. I feel like our businesses work well together."
Simon:
In the B2C world, to be able to look up and see that someone is inspirational and exciting and an organization makes you think, "Wow, those guys are really cool. They get me. I feel like they will look after me as an organization."
Simon:
It doesn't mean you're going to start messaging the CEO. I think most people know that that's not really going to get them very far, but I think that being able to touch that person almost is an exciting thing to do for most people and that connection is great. And let's face it, that's why a lot of people love the fact that celebrities are on social media, right? Because all these people that they aspire to and they'd love to meet, they can almost have some kind of connection with and it only takes a celebrity to like your post and you can get really excited about it, right [crosstalk 00:18:49].
Michelle:
Absolutely. But for me, I have some, I read a lot of books. I love books. It's just one of the things I did. I stopped watching television so I could get through all the books that I've read. And so now people like Tom Peters, who for me when I was at business school, I was reading all of his books. I was like, "Oh, I just think he's great. I align with his thinking." And now, I get to talk to him on Twitter and he will come back and say, "Yeah, great point, Michelle." I'm like, what? So, you're so right, that recognition is so accessible, isn't it?
Simon:
It is, yeah. That's exactly right. Be able to sort of speak to your mentors or your idols or whatever it is. It's really great, it's a fantastic connection. So, yeah, I mean, a common theme of most things I talk about these days is the humanity. And I think, again, that comes back here as well. You know, being able to actually connect as humans and see that there is a person there, there isn't some evil CEO who's just trying to make as much money as possible, but there's a genuine human being there I think is really inspirational for many people.
Michelle:
It is. And I think when you and I were speaking, when we did the webinar for Kogan Page, one of the people, one of the brands that we were talking about just briefly, because it was very relevant at that time was BrewDog. And I think they do this so, so well as a brand, the conversations that they're having with their audience is consistent. You know, they've got some messages around purpose around their sustainability. And then of course you have the CEO or co-founder, James Watts, coming on and talking about his love of sharks and what he's doing. There's just this... I don't even drink beer but it makes me very drawn to pick up their stuff and just say, if I was having a party or a barbecue it would be like, "Oh, let's get the brew dog in," because as you say, it just draws this... They're cool guys, I want to support them.
Simon:
Yeah. I mean, exactly the same. I mean, I don't drink beer either but I would gladly drink BrewDog if I did, so exactly the same and that, you made me think of something important there, which is that this humanity piece, it has to be authentic, right?
Michelle:
Oh yeah.
Simon:
This cannot be constructed if you like. So, you mentioned obviously that they're talking about how they're environmentally friendly and those sort of initiatives that they're putting in place. And that's great. And I think those messages are really important, but if that's what you're pumping out, if as a CEO, you say, "I want to be human so I'm going to talk about our green credentials," that's not really human, that's still doing corporate communications just with your face on it. So, it's got to have your actual personality, it's got to be something that is conversational, is real, is human, is something about yourself that really is going to bring that to life.
Simon:
It's not to say you shouldn't do those other things. Of course you should. Of course you should talk about what your brand stands for, what you're doing, exciting things happening in the business, awards you win and absolutely green credentials if you've got them and most businesses do these days, I think that's critically important as well. But the way that you really get that connection is through genuinely saying, "Look, this is who I am as a person opening up." And that's how we connect with people in any part of life. We say, I'm interested in these things, you're interested in those things. Great, we connect. You don't connect by saying, "I've got this car, you've got that car. Great, lets be friends." So you know the actual offering of your business doesn't matter. It's that human connection that really makes it scale to the next level.
Michelle:
It so does. And so what would you say to a leader? What would your advice be, I suppose? What piece of advice would you give to a fellow leader who is concerned about getting out there? What would you advise them?
Simon:
Yeah, I mean, I'm going to sound like a broken record, I'm going to just say human thing. I won't bang on about it, but everything we've talked about so far, I think is really important. Be yourself, relax, don't worry, be yourself, I'm sure you're a lovely person. So just be yourself is generally a good rule.
Simon:
Do you think before you post, I think it is a key message. You don't react immediately for the sake of 60 seconds and post something without thinking. There's still far too much content out that goes out with, not only just little typos and mistakes which are easily corrected, but also with just messages that can be interpreted a number of different ways. So just you do at least tend to have that little air of caution about what you're posting, but I think overall, if you're building a culture within your business of, and personally that sort of cultures I like have sort of everyone working very closely together, good communication, you have flexibility. We've all seen how much the world has changed with remote working, which is something I'm a big advocate of and have been for many years. I think many businesses are finally seeing that actually it works really well.
Simon:
And I was just speaking to someone the other day, actually, he was saying that their business is not looking to get people back into the office until next June, because the remote working is working so well for them. Why would they even bother? So I think that's important and good motivational strategies and being very, very positive and rewarding success. If you're building those sots of cultures, then you get out there and talk about that, think about what you're saying, but don't be afraid. Don't sit there quiet. Absolutely shout about this stuff. Be positive, make a noise. But if you're not sure, if you're nervous about it, speak to someone like Michelle, who will of course give you the right training to get you through it. But it's really a, if you've got a sort of cheat book on how to make sure you're, you're playing it the right way and you're being safe, then other than that, just be yourself, be a human. And it'll work.
Michelle:
Yeah. Be social. I mean, that's as you say, we forget these are social channels. Brilliant. So thank you so much Simon. Loads of insights there, and lots of practical things people can do and lots of practical things people can be thinking about as well to steer their activity around, not just their social strategy, but as you said their kind of broader digital strategy piece too. So in the spirit of connecting and being very human, I like to pose just a few questions to you about your thoughts. Nothing to do with social, nothing to do with those aspects we've been talking about. Just three quickfire questions. Are you ready?
Simon:
Okay, go for it.
Michelle:
So if you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?
Simon:
That's a huge question.
Michelle:
It's enormous.
Simon:
You know when I said you needed to think about before you say something. I mean, honestly, if I could change one thing in the world at the moment, it would be the political environment. I probably shouldn't comment too much on that, but I think the political systems in the world at the moment are doing us now favors. I think if those could change, then the ability that that gives us to be more far more flexible and far more driven, I think is great. Michelle, I've just realized my RoboVac has just started. I'm just going to just going to pause that, so give me one second.
Michelle:
Hoovering while you podcast, I love it.
Simon:
Yeah, it's on schedule. I'd forgotten [inaudible 00:26:30].
Michelle:
That's brilliant. I don't think we've ever been interrupted by a RoboVac in my 30 podcasts so that is the first, I love it.
Simon:
Oh apologies, I thought I [crosstalk 00:26:39].
Michelle:
Oh, I love that. Has it got a name, Simon?
Simon:
It's called Robbie, yeah.
Michelle:
Robbie. Great. Okay. So political [inaudible 00:26:51]. Back to you then, so which book have you read recently that has inspired you?
Simon:
Do you know what? I'm going to talk about actually, not so much a book, but a person, if you like, who of course does write and talks and does a great deal of things. So there are a million books out there, many of which are inspirational. It's very difficult to pick one, but for me, one person who is inspiring me at the moment and probably for a different reason for why he inspires many people is Elon Musk.
Simon:
Now the reason I say that is not because I'm excited about Tesla and spaceships-
Michelle:
Space.
Simon:
... and things like that. I actually think, a lot of people hold him up as this phenomenal businessman. And you know, you can't say he's a bad businessman of course, but I don't think, that's not it for me. He's clearly a big thinker, he's a clearly an incredibly smart guy. But for me, he makes some fairly fundamental mistakes sometimes, especially on social media, he's a great example of what not to do having destroyed the share price for his business and had all kinds of legal issues because of social media. So, in many ways, he's a good example to look at that there. But for me, the reason I admire him is the innovation and the tenacity and the drive that he has. I think in today's world, you cannot stop innovating.
Simon:
You have to be constantly changing and evolving everything you're doing. Your technology is changing. People's behaviors are changing day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year, everything is changing in the world. You have to be innovating. You have to be tenacious if you're going to get things done, there are always barriers that go up and you have to be really driven. And if you look at it Elon Musk, you have to say, if anything you can say about him, he is constantly thinking about new ways to do things and he's driving really fast and really hard to make those things happen. And I honestly think in the future, people will look back at this period of time and he will be held up as someone who was a big part of changing the world. And I think that's something that I admire greatly about hi and that includes a lot of what he writes, not necessarily everything he says on social media.
Michelle:
Brilliant. Okay, great. And last, but certainly not least, what's the best piece of advice you've been given to date.
Simon:
Yeah, I guess, I mean, it's always difficult to pick one over the last 20 years. I've had some great mentors and bosses down the years. Had some terrible ones as well, haven't we all, but I've been given lots of good advice and much of that's come from the bad bosses as much as the good ones, but the one that always sticks with me, it's one that many of us know, which is simply that, you will fail. I think that's important to remember and that's okay. We will all fail at what we do and we will all make mistakes, be that on social media, digital marketing, or anywhere else in business, we will all make mistakes. We're all humans, coming back to that human point and that's fine. And, failing is okay.
Simon:
The important thing is that when we fail, we fail fast and we learn from it and we correct it and we make sure that failure doesn't happen again. And then we go again and we keep trying and we'll fail again and that's fine, but we keep going and we always win in the end. And I think that's important. And in that human age, I think it's really important for leaders to accept that they and people in their teams will fail. So you don't need to cover that up. You don't need to hide it. You don't need to pretend it didn't happen and you don't need to be over-disciplining people for those things.
Simon:
What you need to do is accept it, say great. We'll learn more from that failure than we would have learned from that success. Let's correct that and let's go again. And I think that for me was the biggest learning I had fairly early on in my career, but I stick very much to it.
Michelle:
Yeah. And it's a great lesson and it's a great, great message and a wonderful way to end this podcast, Simon. So thank you so much for joining me and.I've really enjoyed catching up again.
Simon:
Yeah. It's been great, Michelle. Thanks for having me again.
Michelle:
You've been listening to Get Social Connected Leader podcast. Thank you to my guest, and indeed, thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it and indeed, subscribe to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms and all episodes are also on our website, carvillcreative.co.uk forward slash podcasts.
Michelle:
You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site too. So be sure to check those out. So for now, from me, Michelle, Carville your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in and goodbye. Oh, PS. If you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies, and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me michelle@carvercreative.co.uk.