Get Social Connected Leader podcast with Abby Dixon, Founder and Director of Labyrinth Marketing

Michelle Carvill:
Hello, and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader podcast, where I, Michelle Carvill, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how in this hyper-connected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate. You can find all episodes of the podcast together with show notes via our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts.
Michelle Carvill:
In this episode of the Get Social Connected Leader podcast, I'm delighted to interview Abby Dixon. Abby is the founder and director of award winning marketing and capability consultancy, Labyrinth Marketing. She has led the growth of many household brands across multiple sectors, both while client side and as a consultant. She's a fellow charted marketeer and course director for the Chartered Institute of Marketing and was awarded Independent Consultant of the Year for Women in Marketing in 2019. She's passionate about supporting and empowering the people behind their brands and businesses using both her skills as a marketeer trainer and as accredited coach.
Michelle Carvill:
Abby, good morning. It's great to have you here on the Connected Leader Podcast.
Abby Dixon:
Oh, thanks for having me.
Michelle Carvill:
We met, you're a fellow marketeer, a fellow fellow marketeer and we met at a fellow's dinner and I've been on your podcast, which was really great fun. And so I'm delighted to have you here. And my podcast, as you know, is about the connected leader. It's around how leaders are utilizing digital and social technologies and lots of the interviews that I've done all around, how they're doing that and the practicalities of that. But really what I wanted to do with you, Abby, is I know you're a CEO of your own organization. I know that you utilize the social technologies and we may pick up on that, but I also know that you do a lot of coaching work in this space around leadership.
Michelle Carvill:
And given that we are coming through, moving through this pandemic from what has been a lockdown into what is, how leadership is going to return in the future or what that looks like and the many challenges that will have been thrown up for us all as leaders, I thought it would be great to really tap into your knowledge, your experience in that space. I hope that's okay.
Abby Dixon:
Yeah, that's fine. More than happy to do so.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, great. I suppose let's start off with your view of this changing landscape. Where do you think we are with it? And from a leadership perspective, what do you think that it all means?
Abby Dixon:
I think there's kind of two phases of change. I think there's the change that we are always facing on a day to day basis within organizations. And then there's this new level of that. I think, as I was speaking to someone the other day, they were saying, "Never really in leadership do we have to deal with life or death situations." It's a new age of thinking about how we lead in today's not only challenging and changing, but also the change that's happening now and what's coming in the future. And I think with that, it's almost about taking time to connect with you. I think it always starts with you as a leader and thinking about the change that's happening and the change he wants to make.
Abby Dixon:
And I couldn't stress enough how important it is to have the understanding of you as a human before you have the understanding about you as a leader. Who are you? What do you value? Not just at work, but in life. What is it that you are striving towards, both for the business and personally? How do you look at your life as a whole? So that when you've got that kind of clarity of what you want personally, who you are, what makes you, you, that then all translates into how you lead an organization. And I suppose that the times that we're in has either given us some additional time to think about who we are and what kind of leader we want to be. It's also forced us potentially to be a leader that we never thought we'd have to be either.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. And that's a really valid point, isn't it? I know on the podcast, I've spoken to a few people that have talked about digital transformation has now been accelerated. People were kind of stuck in a place or just biding their time, or maybe it wasn't such a priority, but that digital transformation, we've been kind of pulled into those areas of being more digitally connected. And I suppose from what you're saying is we've also for some of us been pulled into dealing with things that we didn't think we'd have to deal with as leaders, which again, brings us, kind of moves us forward, shifts us, doesn't it? We have to learn and grow to develop a different level of resilience, a different level of coping to kind of keep aligned with that.
Abby Dixon:
Yeah. And also for the people that we lead. Normally on a day to day basis, people are looking for their leaders to be inspirational, to be a visionary, to be able to see the future state where you're trying to take the organization and have such clarity about what that looks and feels like that when they are communicating that to you, you almost feel it in your soul. They are looking for you to take ownership. I've got this, this is my area. I'm here for you, I've got you. And they're also looking for their leaders to be human and authentic. And I think during this time, that has probably been up weighted and dialed up a lot more than it probably ever has been.
Abby Dixon:
Even though you're having to think about the people that you lead as more than the head of finance or the head of marketing, you got to think about Jane and what Jane needs right now. And what is she managing behind her role at home personally, professionally? Who has she got to care for? What does she need in this time so that she feels motivated but more importantly feels safe? And that's something that's been forced upon us. And I think for the better.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. And I like that simplicity of it's not the head of marketing, it's Jane. And sometimes we do, I suppose it comes down to culture, doesn't it? And the culture that's been embedded within an organization. Maybe this is an opportunity for a bit of a culture reset to, I know your podcast, that it talks about the whole marketeer and you look at that very much starting with that individual. And I suppose what we're talking about here is whole leadership, aren't we?
Abby Dixon:
Yeah, completely is whole leadership. The most effective teams that are being led are ER teams, in an emergency room where there isn't time for egos or consideration whether they want to do the task. The goal is really clear, we need to save this person's life and we need to work in harmony in order for that to happen. All that kind of emotional feelings, considerations, status, ego, do I want to do this project? Just gets removed because the goal is so clear and the need is so eminent and so important.
Abby Dixon:
And I think, in these times, as you were saying about leaders having to be more connected, they're also almost having to adopt approaches that they're almost may be trying to move away from. Maybe they're trying to move their organization to be more longterm, to be more strategic and now they're having to be reactive. A lot of the, obviously I work a lot with marketeers, but a lot of marketers have almost had to tear up their strategy or at least tear up their annual plan and say, "Okay, well, none of this is happening. What is happening now? And how do we bring those changes to market?" Whether that's new coms, amended coms, new practices in retail, new customer experience, new products. We know so many people that have pivoted, which is a great word, to develop new products and bring those to market, to help with either with the pandemic or to satisfy a need that wasn't there before that pretty much no one could predicted.
Abby Dixon:
And I think with that, all the normal processes that potentially a leader has puts in place to make sure the rigor and the structure and all considerations are made before something comes to market, have almost gone out the window. It's how quickly can we do this? How can we use potentially digital tools to work together more effectively, remotely, speed up the process? How can we work maybe in a more agile approach working in two week sprints to get things to market? Whereas, normally you have the time to be more considered. You have the time to make sure that you've done the rigor and it's potentially allowing people to act with bravery a lot more than they would normally be allowed.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. And I suppose there is that courage, that stepping forward, that creativity, I think comes into it a great deal now, isn't it? Whenever we are challenged, it's a perfect opportunity to kind of get creative, that can't be under underestimated. What would you say? And from the work you've been doing, the conversations you've been having over this time with people who are kind of trying to get to grips with this, and let's say ripping up the rule book or the processes that they've been working with and the plans and the strategies to pivot, what would you say to organizations' leaders that are struggling with that at the moment?
Abby Dixon:
I think it's a case of taking it day by day. As humans, we all need a mix of certainty and uncertainty. We need those things that we do as part of routines and rituals in our day to day life to make us feel stable. And then we need things that give us uncertainty or variety if you like. The adventure, the experience, the holiday that you've got booked in. Too much certainty in life becomes boring. Too much uncertainty and you kind of don't feel stable. It's a good, easy mix and balance of the two. I think joy in these times what I'm seeing is that people need to take the time to think about what makes them certain because too much is uncertain. They're potentially having to navigate an organization that they've never done before, daily changes that they haven't experienced before, they are flexing with teams who potentially also feel uncertain so you're going to have that kind of absorption of that as well.
Abby Dixon:
And I think never has more been a time for you to actually think about what you need to try and claw back a bit of certainty. Whether that's having a daily or weekly meet that everybody feels clear. Whether that's what you need personally. I need a walk or I need to run, or I need to do some yoga, or I need to just sit for a second and just think about what I'm going to do next. Or maybe it's new rituals and habits that you're creating during lockdown. Just so you've got something that is a constant in your life so that while all this change is happening, you feel more able to cope.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, and that is important. I think that keeping the conversation open as well is I've read a lot about things, articles and posts and things on LinkedIn and on social media where people are talking about the importance of kind of keeping that narrative going. Yes, you clearly got to be looking after yourself and understanding what works for you and those pause moments and what do I need so I can cope with it all?
Michelle Carvill:
But there's that narrative, isn't there? To that certainty to others, to your team, that this is what we're doing. This is how it is. It doesn't mean you have to have all the answers, but at least there is this continuous conversation. And I suppose that's where the social media technologies internally can be a really useful resource because just by sharing regularly, here's where we are today. Here's what we're doing. And often, I think when we talk about social technologies and social media, people think about Twitter and Facebook, but often the most powerful, connected technologies are those that we're using internally within our organizations, so that we can keep that narrative nice and clear. In your experience, is that proving to play out, Abby?
Abby Dixon:
I think there's been more personal phone calls and WhatsApps than there has potentially internal platforms. I know Slack is used quite heavily as well, especially as people having to work at different points in the day. For those that are having to homeschool and log on later or work in different patterns, obviously that's not how they would normally work on a, not that we ever worked a 9:00 to 5:00, but in a kind of classic working day so that one colleague could pick up where the other has left off. I know Slack has been useful. I know Microsoft Teams has been very useful for those that use it. Recording meetings that have happened for others to catch up later so that everyone kind of stays on the same hymn sheet. And I think interlinked with that is actually maybe some vulnerability and being authentic as a leader. It's okay not to be okay. It's okay to tell your team, "It's a really difficult time at the moment. I'm finding it difficult. We're all in this together. I'm here for you."
Abby Dixon:
And showing that bit of vulnerability will allow others to know that it's okay to not be okay. And I think that's where deeper connections are always built is when people share a little bit of themselves. And I think I'm seeing more sharing of themselves on LinkedIn and Twitter and the like during these times. Even the fact that when people are doing webinars or interviews, they're from people's homes. They're from people's homes with, the amount of children, other colleagues' children I've met or their dogs, or somebody saying, "Oh yes, I've got that coffee machine as well." And you've got this new piece of, newfound connection of things that you didn't know that that person was also interested in or getting to know that person on a deeper level. Because I believe you bring your whole self to work. That's a term that's Mary Portas uses and I couldn't agree with it more. You bring your whole self to Every situation.
Abby Dixon:
And normally there's this known entity of what's behind that person, but not really see it. And I think it's allowed people to do that. And I think that's lovely and hindsight is a wonderful thing, almost there should've been more of that in the future. There should have been more of that historically.
Michelle Carvill:
In the past. Yeah. And I suppose some of the things that we want to hold onto going forward, are those deeper, more human connections, because you're absolutely right. The amount of conversations that I've got a picture behind my wall that you would have seen when we were on camera and the people that when I go into the Zoom call say, "I love that. I love that." And it was a piece of art by a local artist. I saw it in the coffee shop and it was my 50th birthday. And I said to my husband, "That's what I want." There you go. And so it's opened up so many, and then people will, we will have a conversation, "Oh, I was 50 last year." Or, "Oh, I've got that coming up and how did that go?"
Michelle Carvill:
And it's just before we've even got to talk about business or the topic there is this, it's not an icebreaker. It's not kind of one of those, it's really authentic human connection. Just interesting conversation about, as you say, finding those points of connection that are genuine and being interested in other people. I talked about this yesterday, when I recorded a podcast with Matt Crabtree, which is coming up about he was saying one of the most important things that he'd learned was that to be more interested than interesting. And I think that this opening up of the channels and this view into other people, as curious beings that we are, has given us that almost permission to be more interested and more about the other people than about ourselves.
Abby Dixon:
It's so true. And I often joke that I've been using Zoom for years and obviously during COVID, it seems that teams and Zoom, usage has gone through the roof, but there's the first 20 minutes that you never used before that you're now using to ask somebody if they're okay. I use Zoom quite a lot with my team and used to it, as are my clients that work overseas or remotely that use it for coaching sessions. And there's been the 20 minutes now to begin with, if I'm being honest, I was like, oh it's 20 minutes to just talk about Zoom. Because it's the first time they've used it and how revolutionary it is and bringing, as you say, connection to people that wouldn't have necessarily been able to do during this time.
Abby Dixon:
But I think, there has been 20 minutes, but there's actually been 20 minutes of, are you okay? How are you finding it? Discussions of the struggles that people are having. And that isn't a normal business conversation, especially not in the UK. You ask people how they are almost as the entry into, let's get on with the business. Whereas actually people are asking, how are you? Because they generally want to know and they generally want to share how they are and having that connection that wasn't there before.
Michelle Carvill:
That's a really, those are some positives. What do you foresee happening moving forward? Do you think this is we're going to move forward? If we want to affect change, if we want to keep this connectivity to ourselves, it's quite interesting. I have found myself since this easing out of lockdown over the last, particularly the last couple of weeks, it feels like I've been sat in my office from 7:00 till 7:00 again, and doing all the things that I promised myself I wouldn't do. I'm definitely going to get out for a walk every day and I'm going to do my yoga practice every day. And I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. And all of a sudden, just because of demands and time, I found myself sat there. And we had a conversation as a family to say, "Actually, no. We have a choice. We have a choice just to fall back into those old patterns or we have a choice to move things forward and that's going to take some discipline and that's going to take some challenge to ourselves and creating new habits." What's what's your take on that, Abby?
Abby Dixon:
I think that so many people have almost use this time to reset. They are sitting there saying, "I don't know what the new normal looks like, but what do I want the new normal to look like?" Everybody needs what they need. Some people need that connection. They like the buzz and environment of working alongside people in office and kind of being able to just have that ebb and flow and those as I call them water cooler conversations. And there's others that have gone, "Actually no, I don't want to travel as much. I don't want to go into the office as much. I'm liking being able to be home earlier, if you will, or have that run after work."
Abby Dixon:
I know somebody that was saying to me that she's slowed down so much, that she's realized all the extracurricular activities that her and her family were doing, they're just not going to do anymore. They don't need as much. It's almost like the societal pressure of what a busy and successful family or business looks like isn't there anymore. I think I would say to the people that are listening to this, use almost what you don't want, almost work out what you do want. If you don't want to go into the office, you don't want to travel the same extent, what do you want to do? Is that two days a week? Is that every other week? For those that want the buzz in the office, how many days does that look like? And so that when we come back to the new normal, you've got clarity about what it looks like for you, because I think the power is in the employee now. And the organization has been shook up. Everybody's organization has, and I'm coming back, but I'm coming back on my terms and working out what those terms are.
Michelle Carvill:
As you say, it feels like that's very on your terms. That's kind of like the Nirvana and it's a real switch from having to, to wanting to. And no doubt with that little come happier employees, more productivity, more success. That's kind of the idealistic view, isn't it?
Abby Dixon:
Yeah. People who have been asking for flexi work or to be able to work from home more, they proved it works.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely.
Abby Dixon:
They proved it works. And so expecting us to go back to where we were, I think is unrealistic. And I think leaders listening to that need to not only take the time to think about what they want personally. What kind of leader do you want to be when you go back? What would you like your own work pattern to look like? And kind of having that openness and approachability for your employees to come to you and say, "Actually, this is what I'd like it to look like moving forward," so that you can all agree in align together because the old working pattern, I would be as brave as to say is gone.
Michelle Carvill:
It's interesting, isn't it? It's going to be very interesting looking into the next three, six, 12 months as to what those shifts, how they manifest. It feels very, very significant now. It will be just interesting, won't it? To see how that plays out. I'm with you. It's certainly changed for me. And it's certainly changed for our family in how we're thinking about particularly, one of my daughters has just finished school and moving into university. But the other one is very much, she's always been saying for years and years about homeschooling and now it's kind of like, actually no problem. If that's really what you want to do and that makes you much happier, it seems to work.
Michelle Carvill:
I think it's given us this opportunity to see how things work in a different way. How it's played out in a different way, which has made me far more comfortable about something that I probably just would not have considered. And I suppose that tiny little example is the same that we're potentially going to see. There will be leaders that have taken to digital technologies that have had to connect their teams digitally. It's the only way that they've been able to connect and communicate with their teams and maybe a number of them have thought, actually that works really well. We can do more of this. We've already heard that a lot of organizations or a number of organizations are considering what's going to happen with their office space.
Abby Dixon:
Yeah, I was just about to say the same. I've heard a lot of that too. I've heard a lot of people say, "And actually, we just let go of the lease because moving forward, people aren't going to be returning to a fixed desk like they were." What does new look like?
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. It's going to be interesting times, interesting times. And I suppose coming right back full circle to the point you made at the beginning of our conversation, Abby, is that to fare through these interesting times, we've got to get really connected to ourselves.
Abby Dixon:
A 100%. And never have I experienced in my personal professional life a time where people have been able to claim back some time to think about themselves. If I think about my specific business personally, my coaching is massively scaled up compared to kind of strategy and longterm thinking in marketing activities because more people have gone actually. Things have slowed down. I'm starting to realize that this may be isn't what I want or I want more. And I've had a lot more coaching requests for people to kind of reconnect with themselves. Almost not find themselves again, it feels a bit hippy and a bit too strong, but just pause for a second and think about who am I? What do I want? What do I want my life to look like as a whole? What does the role that work plays within that? Where do I want to take this organization? Where do I want to take my team? How can I be a better leader?
Abby Dixon:
All of those things and never has there been a time to do that or been given time to do that. I think personally all the times when either I was leading or leading now or thinking about what's next, it always is, I have to go away. I have to go away for the weekend. I have to take myself on a course or spend the time with a coach myself to work that through. And COVID for all of the negatives that has definitely been one positive.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. And I think those questions that you raise there are good questions to map out. Aren't they at this point? Our own little kind of personal coaching session to ourselves around, what do I want? What do I want to move forward with? What are my values? How do I want to move forward positively? What have I learned from this pause, from this reset? Yes. It's given us permission to kind of think that way. I love that, Abby. Thank you for sharing those. Really useful and really practical things that we can all be doing and thinking about. I've been making notes furiously. I will re-listening and writing those out. And of course in the show notes, there will be, the transcript will be there as well. We'll pull those out because that's a useful exercise for people to be pondering.
Abby Dixon:
If I could just add one more exercise that I often ask my coachees to do. Once you've kind of taken the time to work out what it is you value, so not what you're doing, but why you're doing it, the benefit that that gives you. I love training for example. And the benefit of that is that I get both connection with the people that I'm training and also it grows me. It plays to my two of my values. I think taking this time to either identify your values, if you don't know them or taking the time to take those values, if you do know them and sit down and think about what am I going to keep doing? What am I going to stop doing? What am I going to start doing? What am I going to do more of? And what am I going to do less of?
Abby Dixon:
And almost do a PDP review of your own life if you will. Because, I believe in life by design. We are in control of our lives and we can make the choices to live the life we want. If someone sat here thinking, what could I do? That is a great exercise as well as the other questions just to take an audit and almost think holistically, if you were drawing out in pictures, what will my life look like in the future?
Michelle Carvill:
Wonderful. I love that. And that's a perfect, perfect practical way to wrap up that part of our podcast. Before you go, Abby, I like to fire three quick fire questions, which is just a little bit more of a personal connection to you. They are kind of quick fire questions that some of them are pretty big questions, but it's just kind of top of head views. I'm going to fire these at you. Are you okay with that?
Abby Dixon:
Go for it.
Michelle Carvill:
Okay. If you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?
Abby Dixon:
Honesty. I think, as you said about being connected leaders, I think being able to be you, your true authentic self, being honest and being able to be honest with yourself and with others. Increase honesty.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful. And what about books? Because I know like me, you're an avid reader, which book have you read recently or that has inspired you or you're maybe reading it?
Abby Dixon:
I always kind of, as you know, I read a lot of books. I try and either listen to, or read a book a week. That's kind of a thing that I have and it plays to my growth value. I kind of measure my books on the ones that I then gift out to others. The book I have gifted out to others is a book by Oprah Winfrey. It's called, A Path Made Clear, and she has antidotes from a whole host of different people from all different walks of life. Talking about the time, thinking about where you are, what you want, planting those seeds and living your life on the path, in the path that you want. It's a beautifully written book. She also does it audibly, for those that love Oprah's voice like me, for its therapeutic properties is a great one.
Michelle Carvill:
Wonderful. And I don't know that book, so yeah. I'm going to dig that one out. Fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. And last, but certainly not least, what's the best piece of advice you have been given to date?
Abby Dixon:
I'm going to go deep with this one, Michelle.
Michelle Carvill:
Good.
Abby Dixon:
When I was doing my coaching training, there is an exercise called five questions and you ask five people in your circle, your circle of influence, to answer these questions. And one of them is what one piece of advice could I give you for your benefit? And the common theme that I got was, you've already achieved so much, just pause and acknowledge that you've achieved that. Not always trying to constantly prove yourself. And I think that's not only a great lesson for me to just pause and go, yeah, you have achieved so much, slow down a second and almost embrace that. Also for so many, because I think there's so much societal pressure on to constantly be evolving, constantly going after the next thing and almost not necessarily standing still, but just accepting that all those life experiences and everything that you've achieved so far is useful and is you already have it, it's already in your armory and you can constantly use it. You don't always have to be fighting to find the next new thing.
Michelle Carvill:
That is so, so relevant to me as well, Abby. I'm absorbing that piece of wonderful advice because I think that is great, great advice for so many of us just to be present and sit with it all for a while and accept rather than be running into the next thing is such an important way of holding it all, isn't it?
Abby Dixon:
Yeah. Celebrating the successes that you've had so far and acknowledging that you carry them with you always.
Michelle Carvill:
Exactly. Yeah. Lovely, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation, as ever and thank you so much for being a guest. I love the take that we took with this discussion around the practicalities of what it means for individuals and the choices that we have. And some of those, I love the fact that you've shared some practical exercises and views and things that we can be thinking about as leaders as we move forward into whatever. And no doubt, I will have you back on the podcast. It may be a few months time where we can actually discuss well, where have we all got to?
Abby Dixon:
Yeah. Definitely. Be interested to see how this unfolds.
Michelle Carvill:
It will. Thank you so much, Abby. Wonderful.
Abby Dixon:
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Michelle Carvill:
You've been listening to the Get Social Connected Leader podcast. Thank you to my guest and indeed thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it. And indeed, subscribe to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms and all episodes are also on our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts. You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site too so be sure to check those out. For now, from me, Michelle Carvill, your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in and goodbye.
Michelle Carvill:
Oh P.S. If you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me michelle@carvillcreative.co.uk.