Get Social - The Connected Leader Podcast - Nilema Bhakta-Jones COO Farillio, Founder - The Courageous Leader

Michelle Carvill:
Hello and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, where I, Michelle Carvill, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how, in this hyper-connected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate. You can find all episodes of the podcast, together with show notes, via our website carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts. In this episode of the Connected Leader Podcast, I'm delighted to interview Nilema Bhakta-Jones, Chief Operating Officer at Farillio, and founder of the highly successful Courageous Leader Event. At Farillio, Nilema's on a mission to smash away barriers to key information and core materials that small businesses need to start, grow, and thrive. Through her Courageous Leadership Event, she's empowering leaders to find the courageous leader within. The event, through a foundation set up in honor of her mother, and working with Plan International UK, supports an education project for adolescent disadvantaged girls in Zimbabwe.
Michelle Carvill:
Before joining Farillio, Nilema was CEO of Alacrity, General Counsel of Ascential plc, and for over a decade she advised on international and domestic mergers and acquisitions, joint ventures, IP, and a broad range of legal contentious and regulatory issues. Over the past decade she's been recognized and awarded with a number of accolades, including Inspirational Women in Law Award, the Legal Business Powerlist, and is listed in The Lawyer’s Hot 100, to name but a few. Given the impact of the recent global pandemic, let's consider the changing landscape for leaders, and what being a connected leader really means now, during this time, and indeed, the future of leadership. In my view, connected leadership is not just about being accessible on social media channels and connected technically. It's also about that connection to self, purpose, and people. So in this podcast we'll explore that element a little further. Hi, Nilema. Welcome to the Connected Leader Podcast.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Thank you for inviting me.
Michelle Carvill:
It's wonderful to have you here. We met a couple of years ago when you hosted your wonderful Courageous Leaders Event. We've just been having a bit of a pre-chat about that wonderful event, and of course, the topics for that event have always been around leadership. Do you want to just talk about why you brought that event and what your experience of the changes that are happening in leadership are meaning for you?
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Yes, thank you. Absolutely. I do remember our meeting, and I thoroughly enjoyed meeting you for the first time. Your energy and enthusiasm was contagious. For me, the core of that event was about courage, and the critical factor is that I believe that courageous leaders can bring about seismic change. I think that someone who operates with courage can bring about really positive change in society, within their businesses, amongst their teams, and eventually with a view to bringing out positive outcomes for those perhaps who are disadvantaged or don't have the same opportunities. So Courageous Leaders is about finding the courage within yourself, and that's core to that particular event. What that event has led to is some really interesting insights into the different types and styles of leadership, but I think what it has done, and as you said in your opening, Michelle, that the purpose, the connection with self, purpose, and people, has started to influence people's leadership going forward. I think that what we've seen is a seismic shift in the last three months in leadership.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Just last week I shared a quote with my colleagues at work, essentially saying... It was of Lenin, actually. Lenin said, "There are decades when nothing happens, and there are weeks when decades happen." And then just on Monday, Mark Carney shared the same quote. He's the former Bank of England governor. I think that's what's happened recently, and people have had to adjust their leadership styles, the way they communicate, how they behave, in such stark ways, that perhaps have led them to be different, themselves, and operate differently. But also, some have risen, and that's been demonstrated beautifully by many key leaders out there.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
So I think the seismic shift that we've seen... And there are very few crises in history that have impacted everyone at the same time, and some have risen and some have fallen. I think, notably, we've seen the impact of digital, and communication by digital, being made by those who are supporting different causes, whether it's conscious consumerism, activism, or the Black Lives movement is a classic example. Jeff Bezos just recently, in early June, had to remonstrate with a customer who was really offended by the fact that Jeff Bezos came out and made a statement in support of the Black Lives movement. He then received a profanity laden email from the customer, Dave, who told him that he canceled his account. Jeff Bezos stood by what he had said and showed the courage of his conviction, and that was really impressive, because he said, "You're one type of customer that I'm willing to lose." And that takes courage. There are not a lot of leaders who are willing to stand up in that way.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
It's also, I think, digital leadership. I think leadership, generally, these conditions they're operating under has more new leaders. Marcus Rashford's campaign for free school dinners is inspiring. Although, our prime minster said that he had not seen the campaign, he does acknowledge that Marcus Rashford had been moved by the fact that other children wouldn't have access to lunches and dinners at school. He had benefited from it, and look at where he is today. So I think that leaders today are showing immense courage. Emerging leaders are showing immense courage. The conversation has shifted to now talking about leading with humility, with compassion, with kindness, engagement, and engagement with not only our team, our colleagues, but our customers. And I think that's the shift, the seismic shift, that we've seen recently.
Michelle Carvill:
There's just so much hope and positivity in that, isn't there, when it comes to that shift because I suppose, traditionally, we felt, as a collective, that people with power don't always do the right thing, and we know that that's not always happening everywhere around the world. I love the Marcus Rashford example, because that is... Maybe people wouldn't see him as a leader because he's a sports person, isn't he? But he has been able to take his presence and use his platform and his audience for good. That's not necessarily always the remit of the CEO, is it?
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Well, it hasn't traditionally been seen, and I think that this is the point, isn't it, that we've all had to adjust to, that leaders alone don't have to be just fixated about sales, revenue, numbers, profitability. These days, consumers, customers, employees are looking to leadership to set a tone, and this is particularly relevant where companies have put together values that they stand by, or proclaim that they're a purpose-led business. These days, consumers are more willing to hold you accountable to that. They're more willing to respond, and then they have access to you and your team through the various media that is available to them, and they will make it heard. They will want you to be transparent, but they also want you to be congruent with those values that you proclaim that you have.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
I think, although we... You and I both know, we both studied this, that grand activism is just not a new term, but conscious consumerism, that rise in consciousness, is. It is people willing to say, "I am now going to act in a way that is congruent with my values, that is consistent with what I believe in, and therefore, that is going to drive my choices about which companies I buy from, whether it's Patagonia, whether I believe in Body Shop, whether I believe in the kind of products that is going to make a difference to the environment, or which the outcome of which is a positive one. It's going to increase access to water, access to education, or it supports the UN sustainability goals."
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
You've seen that in the creative industries. Five or six years ago they stood by and said, "Each one of us are going to pledge towards supporting one of the UN's sustainability goals." And what's fantastic is that actually more of the innovation that is coming from companies have got and paid attention to some of the things that their customers have said, "We care about this. Now we expect you to behave and/or operate consistently with that."
Michelle Carvill:
It is, and it's interesting, because I've just finished writing a book around sustainable marketing, and I wasn't that familiar with the concept of the B Corps. Of course, that is corporations that are focused on profits, but not just profits, but that it's about people, purpose, and profits. Beyond shareholder value, it's got to be about the people, purpose, and profits. They are growing significantly. More and more organizations are switching to become B Corps, but it's not an easy process. There's a lot of accountability in there. You can't just tick the box. There's real accountability.
Michelle Carvill:
I think that some organizations really struggle with that people, purpose, planet positioning. From a leadership perspective, I suppose, not necessarily that you can answer this questions, but what's your view then about those leaders... I mean, that's a different perspective, isn't it, coming away from this purely shareholder value, and being very internally driven about how profitable you are, to actually becoming more expansive in your thinking about the impact that your organization has at a broader level.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Yeah, I agree. It's not easy. I mean, I think the bravest thing I've seen is Nike's campaign last year with Colin Kaepernick. The fact that they were willing to stand by a statement and an individual who took the knee, I think that is the bravest thing that I've seen in a long time. But, more and more, you can see the mathematic and the economics that work, the metrics that work, in favor of doing the right thing, whether it's for the planet, whether it's for individuals, whether it's for the customer, whether it's sustainability, because there are companies that are setting the way and showing the way. They're shining a light on this. Patagonia being a really good case example of that, where it is possible and where their profits are increasing. So you can do that. However, it is not easy for CEOs to go into an investor meeting and to be able to explain that this is what they're going to do, because their investors, if they're the majority shareholder as well, are going shout them down.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
They have to have criteria, metrics, to show how this is going to make sense for the business and make that pivot. It takes time, and it's got to be... There are lots of case studies to this. I mean, in fact, if you're a fan of Simon Sinek, he gives you case examples where companies withstood investor activism, withstood investor wrath, only to be able to show and demonstrate how, by sticking to core goals and doing the right thing, they actually turned around and were able to deliver shareholder value. He cites harmacuetical companies who did this. CVS is one of the examples he gives of how they turned around and said, "We are not going to stock cigarettes and tobacco because, actually, we're a pharmacy. We're meant to be selling things that are healthy for our customers, and not something that's going to lead them to suffer long-term health damage." In fact, within a year, they were able to show an increase in share price.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
I think those who were detractors, those writers, those analysts, who wrote about that company at the time, were able to then come back a year later and say, "Okay, we've learned from that, that team." But the CEO has to be surrounded by really strong people around him or her in order to be able to do that, and they have to have the courage of their conviction. That does take a lot, but if they have that, their employees will have that, and their customers will have it. Because their employees will reflect that courage, they will reflect those values, and they will know how to behave in those circumstances, and every single customer they meet will feel the same way. They will feel that this is a company worthy of their loyalty. I think we have to think that way in this day and age more than ever. Digital is a fantastic way of doing that. It can absolutely lead to activism for the positive benefit, either for the company or for the causes that they support.
Michelle Carvill:
I agree with you wholeheartedly there, Nilema. With regards to a leader... Because that's a lot, isn't it, for that CEO to be... They're the hearts and minds, they're the brains, they're trying juggle and spin so many plates about, driving that organization forward with purpose, and drive that, and lead by example, truly lead by example, so that those messages cascade down through employees, out to the employee, it becomes part of the brand ethos, doesn't it, in many ways?
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Michelle Carvill:
That is a big role. In your experience, and in your coaching experiences as well, what would you say to leaders who are struggling with the weight of that responsibility, or don't quite know how to drive that forwards?
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
That it's not your responsibility alone. If you're trying to do it alone, then you are carrying a burden that is going to weigh you down so much that it might render you inactive. This is not a solo mission, and it should never be a solo mission. Yes, it's very lonely to be at the top. It's very lonely to be the CEO, where you feel that you're carrying it alone. But in reality, if you are vulnerable, and if you open it up and you engage in a dialogue with your immediate team, they will reflect back to you what they need. There is nothing more important than human connection. When you are being human and vulnerable as a leader, people will rush to your aid. It's a natural human reaction. So, I don't think it should be a solo thing. I think it should be a dialogue with your customer base. It should be a dialogue with your employee base. That communication is really vital.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
During this lockdown period, I have spoken to and with international leaders, and one in particular who gave me a fantastic insight about how... Because he sits on multiple boards. He's part of a hedge fund, and his role is to sit on multiple boards. One of the things he gave me, which is really interesting, is how different leaders, different CEOs, responded differently to lockdown conditions and to COVID. Those who really succeeded, it's because they had a tight management team and they had great communication.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
One thing he said, one of the key factors was transparency. They communicated in a human way, they reached out, they connected with their teams, they connected with their employees, and they shifted the dialogue to, "How can we help you, employee, to carry on through these conditions? How can we support you, because you are now critically the most important individual that we have to look after because you're talking to our customers. Your well-being, how you operate, how productive you are, the conditions in which you are working are intimately important and radically important to me as CEO, because I need to know, and that will inform how I then create new policies, how we talk about coming back, how we talk about how we're going to operate in the future."
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
But one of things that we have to be mindful of, is CEOs do have a really difficult question to answer now. How am I going to lead into the future? What does future leadership look like today, and what does it look like in three years time? The things that you know as CEO that you can't necessarily replicate if you are hiring new people for the first time... And that time will come where you are recruiting. You want to be able to share your values and the behaviors that you expect from new people. Quite often that arises when you run your sessions as CEO or when people are exposed to others in a team, and they have those water cooler moments where can ask the difficult questions, or they can ask the most mundane of questions, where you can say, "Look, I forgot where we file these things," or, "I've forgotten where I should go and look for this," or, "Do you know who I need to speak to about this?"
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Sometimes those just happenstance conversations happen when you go to the printer or you go to the coffee point or to the water cooler. Those things aren't going happen if we're going to continue to operate in the way that we are during lockdown, in a remote way. So you, as CEO, have to think about how you're going to replicate those conditions for the future. How are new people going to learn how to behave, what to look for, what to expect from an organization, and create conditions that enable that to happen, because that's how your culture is going to be recreated, and continue. The magic sauce that you might have today in a really beautiful culture is created, not just by you. It is created by everyone around you, and your behavior will be reflect to you by your team and reflected and passed on as a ripple effect into your organization. So your willingness to be open, communicate, transparent, human, is going to really pay back exponentially, but don't carry that burden alone.
Michelle Carvill:
I love that. And, of course, the social technologies... When I've interviewed a number of CEOs a number, a number of leaders, on this podcast, and when I was writing Get Social, the social technologies are a perfect platform for that level of connectivity. I mean, we were talking in the pre-chat about how surprising it is to many just how connected people can feel digitally now that we've all had to do it. People are finding out that, actually, it works and, okay, you don't have that physical... They're a bit more managed, these types of interactions, because it's a planned time that you all jump on to the call, so you can't have those spontaneous interactions, but you can still certainly have a great deal of level of connection.
Michelle Carvill:
I suppose using social technologies and social media, from a leadership perspective, you can have those spontaneous interactions, because many of the leaders that I've interviewed have said, by being visible, by being transparent, by being accessible on social media channels, and giving permission for their employees to connect with them and to go back and talk to those employees, often people that may be in a different country or a different geographic location that they wouldn't ordinarily have been able to connect with face-to-face in an office anyway, it's opened up opportunity, even pre-lockdown.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Yes, absolutely. There's a fantastic example of that. There's a company called HCL in India, they're a software business, a fantastic case study that I read about and studied. Vineet Malhotra was the CEO of that business, and he was new into role. He wanted to bring some different ways of engaging with his employees, so he created an Ask Vineet intranet. The nature of Indian society, generally, is that they are respectful of hierarchy and authority. So the fact that you could ask you CEO any questions was probably one that they met with some skepticism to start off with, but when they started to see that he was actually responding to questions raised, irrespective of where the question came from, he started to get a flood of more and more and more questions. Then he reflected, at one point, because he was publishing all his answers, sharing it with everyone blatantly, he got to a point where he realized that he couldn't answer all the questions. He was being asked some really difficult questions. So what he did, he said, "I'm reversing this. I'm now going to put the questions out there, because you guys are really smart. Some of you know the answers to these questions and I don't."
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Hey, he's showing vulnerability. He's showing, "I might be CEO, I don't know all the answers, but do you know what, I'm surrounded by fantastic people." CEOs do, they surround themselves with giants, as that saying goes, "I stand on the shoulders of giants." I hire people who are, essentially, not like me, but who, essentially, fix the weaknesses that I have, who come in, whose strengths are not mine, but they bring something else, they bring diversity, they bring different thought. I have to be open, as CEO, to be challenged. I have to create psychological safety in order to be challenged. But I have to be super comfortable that I'm I'm willing to accept any question, and also admit I don't know the answer to it, and there's nothing wrong with that. You have earned the right to be CEO. We respect that. We respect that you bring to it leadership, you bring to it knowledge, you bring to it experience. We trust your leadership, we trust your vision, and we trust the structure that you are taking us into and are going to execute. We will help you execute. But where you don't know the answer, please don't... I'm going to swear. Don't bullshit us, because we don't want the BS. We smell it from a mile. It doesn't matter whether it's through social or whether it's in person or via Zoom, we instinctively know when someone is winging it.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
There's a great example of this on The Today Programme a CEO of a very famous motoring company came on, and he said, "Yes, we're going back. We've got all the conditions sorted out for it," and Martha Kearney said, "Oh, interesting. So how are you going to transport all of your employees, and can they get on to public transport, or are you going to secure every single employee's ability to come back into the manufacturing company and building?"
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
You knew in the pause there's no way they had thought about the logistics down to that minutia, and he winged it. My estimation of him plummeted at that point in time, because I thought, "No, you should have just said, 'Do you know, Martha, we're still working through that, and those are the details that are critical because the health and safety of our employees are a priority for us. You're right, and we will ensure that we publish and we're transparent about the way in which we're going to do this.'" I would have had more respect for him, and I would have more respect for our political leaders if they did the same thing. Sorry seems to be the hardest thing-
Michelle Carvill:
I know. I know.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
... that those in parliament are incapable of putting out there, yet, that is the one thing that would lead us all to trust them more, is humility, is their willingness to say, "Hey, we don't know everything, but we're working with the best, yes, absolutely, we take that as read, but we're willing to learn, we're willing to admit when we have got things wrong, but we are going to shift and shift quickly to do that," but they are incapable of doing that, and it disheartens all of us at a time when we need trust to be the currency. I mean, trust needs to be currency all the time, but now more than ever-
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
... especially those who are vulnerable, those who are scared, those who are worried about their children, those who are worried how they're going to put a meal on the table. Trust in our leadership is so critical, and now's the time for us to be able to essentially say, "You can trust us. Your well-being, and our well-being together, is the most critical thing," for us to be able to do that.
Michelle Carvill:
And I think, as you say so beautifully there, Nilema, that humility, isn't it? It's the humility. Just be human. We don't have all the answers. That transparency, it's a big jacket to wear, but it's so, so worth it if you can pop that on. Just moving into a little bit more about the social channels then, and the digital, because I know you, with Courageous Leaders, and I know you, with the work that you do with Farillio, you're visible out there, you're active every day. What role have you found, as the leader within your organization and with regards to Courageous Leaders Event, have you found social technologies really helps to enable? Where do they fit in your leadership portfolio?
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
I think it fits into all the things that we talked about, the communications, the fact that I am out there willing to speak my truth, be very clear about what my truths are, and be held accountable to them. But also, I think it can be fun. You can learn so much from others. I have come across people, some of the most inspiring people around the world, via Twitter, whose words will resonate or... perhaps at my lowest point where perhaps I wasn't felling as motivated or energized and read some beautiful words being put out there by people who I really respect, or perhaps I've just stumbled upon, who's just inspired me, who've lifted me. I think... rise together through social, used properly and respectfully. Please don't put up crap, stuff that no one's interested in. If you've nothing to say, don't say anything at all. It's really important because there's an awful lot of rubbish too, and you have to filter it. But you also have to be prepared, and especially leaders. I know this is really hard for conservative leaders, with a small C, who are perhaps not at ease with that medium. It's really hard.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
It's that willingness of some key people to come back to you and say, "Hey, what are you going to do about that?" Now, we can learn from a lot of people that have engaged in it. I mean, Jeff Bezos is a really good example of that. Do you know, he came back and he said, "I'm standing firm about something that I really believe in. I'm standing very clearly for statement that I've made, but I am willing to lose business on that basis, because it matters more than ever before that we stand and be courageous in the values that we believe in today."
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
So, for me, I've learned an awful lot from the people via social media channels. One of the joyous things about it is, there are people who we follow each other, we tag each other, we have a chat, we support and celebrate things and news that come out, and one of the fantastic things is being able to meet those people in person [crosstalk 00:29:20], and that happened to me at Courageous Leaders. I met people who had been following what I had been saying, who had been tagging me, who had LinkedIn with me, and I met them in person. I love those moments because I feel like I already know them and we know each other. We know the bones of each other, and there is instant connection. If anything, as human beings, we must strive for connection.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Human connection is the most valuable thing that energizes us. It makes our heart sing to meet someone who values the things we love, laughs at the same things we laugh at, enjoys the same music we enjoy, that we can talk about, or who perhaps is going to challenge us that Chariots of Fire is not the greatest movie ever made, it's Shawshank Redemption, and we can have conversation about it. But it must meaningful for us in some form or another, but it can be fun, and there is lots of fun to be had, and it's a joy. The gifts are a joy, all of the little things you do on social, they're fun, and you can give back. You can support people who are feeling vulnerable, who perhaps have no one else to tell.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
I reached out to a lady who put that message across. She was in Miami, and she was talking about how sad she felt on her birthday, and it coincided with mine. I sent her a direct message. I didn't need to publish it to everybody on the planet. I sent her a message and I said, "Hey, here's a message from me. I wish you..." I put a very personal message and wished a great day, but I also wanted her to have a great day for her, personally. So I sent out a personal message, and it really resonated with her, because it moved her enough to come back to me to say, "Oh my God. That's really thoughtful of you."
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
I don't know her from Adam. I don't have to know her political convictions. I don't have to know any of that. I can look her up. I can see the sort of person that she is from her posts, and I can feel comfortable in trying to perhaps make someone happy on a day where they felt alone. I feel that is an underlying message of the way I want to live my life. I want to bring light to darkness. If I can give hope where there is none, then I've lived a life worth living. If it's through social media, happy days. I can reach people who are feeling lonely or who need a boost, or to whom perhaps a message that I've put out resonates and has made a difference to them that day. And perhaps it hasn't. Maybe it's just made them laugh, that's enough, that's good enough for me.
Michelle Carvill:
That's wonderful, and I think that it's that secret sauce about you that you bring to the Courageous Leaders Event, which is why we all come back saying, "That was the best event we've ever been to." [crosstalk 00:32:08] because there is that genuine desire to bring that light, and it does, it lights everybody up. Because as you say, we're all looking for that connection, and when that connection is real and it's transparent and authentic, we feel it, and that's a big message, I think
Michelle Carvill:
Because, I think, from a leadership perspective... And I've spoken to a number of people in senior positions. They may not be CEOs, but they're in leadership roles and, in many ways, all of us are leaders in one way or another, and there is this, or there was this, almost mask that you had to put on to be a leader. There was this old school thinking that it has to be about command and control, rather than being conscious and compassionate, and that is shifting. It feels like it's shifting, from the people that I speak to, but maybe it's because I'm attracting and picking the people that I want to speak to. I'm sure it's not perfect yet, by any stretch of the imagination.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
It's not, and we have to be respectful of the different conditions in which people find themselves as CEOs, as leaders, where perhaps for them to speak out with courage takes them out of the circle that placed them in that position. There's a couple of things that arise from that. One is that it's fear. What is it that's holding them back? Fear. Fear is fear of being vulnerable. Fear of standing up for the values that you believe are true, fear that you won't be accepted, fear that those around you will essentially detract, walk from you, not support you. If that is that the case, and you are a leader in those circumstances, are you in the right place? Are you in the right place for you to thrive to help those around you to thrive? Are you creating conditions to enable everyone to reach their full potential, and therefore your business to reach full potential? The question is, are you in a place of trust, psychological safety, or are you in a toxic environment that holds you back, that holds diverse views back? Where we can't show up and show our imperfect selves by revealing that our deep seated desire and passion is not only to create a successful company, but is to give back, is to be purposeful, is to make a difference to a cause that we're very passionate about.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Because the minute people who are passionate go quiet, we have lost some vitality, we've lost energy, and it's passionate people that really make things happen. You can take that passion, bottle it, and it will continue to energize over and over and over again. It is that fear that holds us back. Overcoming fear in leadership, under adverse circumstances, is the essence, for me, of courage. We can look to those who inspire us, and take that courage to be able to operate in and create a new environment, create the kind of environment that means that everybody will thrive, that diverse voices are heard, people are seen as human. We want the whole human to be brought into work, because that diversity of thought, that diversity of challenge, their passion, what they bring, is what will make us collectively stronger, versus us being on our own.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
I am respectful of organizations that say, "It's always been done this way in our industry. We're not going to change." I hear and respect the challenges that you have, but I bet if you reached out to those individuals on a human level and asked them what mattered to them, and they will tell you the most beautiful stories. They will tell you about how they watched their father work in a coal mine and they never wanted to replicate that experience, but if they could change that experience for their father they would. They will tell you how education is so important for their children and they don't want for them to lose that.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
They will tell you how they came into work with fear every day, fear of judgment, fear of someone treating them badly. If you, as a leader, can change, that you should. It's incumbent upon you, otherwise you don't deserve the title of leadership. You are in a place where it is incumbent upon you to be in service of those people, to create the conditions that help them to thrive. And if you're not in those conditions, you either got to evaluate your willingness to be bullish and courageous to change it, or... And this is taking people alongside with you, it's not a single lone wolf scenario. The strength of the wolf is in the pack. Get people around you who buy into your vision, who you can inspire to work with you towards that vision. If you are not in those conditions, you have to really, really ask yourself, are you in the right organization?
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Some people... and there are lots of examples of this, CEOs that said, "I couldn't thrive in that organization," but went somewhere else, and boom, you've seen them thrive, you've seen them grow, you've seen the organization, you've fallen in love with their message, and you're saying, "Why have we not seen this from you before?" And that is because they were suppressed. They were suppressed because they were surrounded by fear. We should never operate in an organization where our voices aren't heard, we are not seen, where fear rules, versus courage, compassion, kindness. Thorough challenge is always vital. Robust challenge is always vital. But create the psychological safety so that those conditions do thrive, those challenges do arise, and never operate from a place of fear, because it's only ever going to lead to poor decision making.
Michelle Carvill:
I mean, that is powerful stuff, Nilema, there, and great advice. If people are feeling suppressed and disconnected from themselves, because there's an element... You're disconnected yourself, aren't you? If you're going along with something and it's not resonating and you're feeling suppressed, but you're feeling a bit trapped, that's a challenge, isn't it? And that-
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
It is a challenge, and it's work. It's the reason why we work with coaches, or perhaps why we have such good friends around us. Friends who only want to tell us the positives are not really our friends. They're not necessarily helping us along the way. But those who are saying, "You've gone really quiet. These are things you used to be so passionate about. Where's your energy? What's happened to you? Talk to me. Tell me what's going on. Let's go for a walk, where we're close to nature, where we're open, where there's nothing that surrounds us that is going to make us feel oppressed. Let's just be really heart-to-heart." What we forget, we bring our whole selves, we work so hard, and we know the nature of working these days, it's pounding us in every way. There is no off button, and as a consequence, we are out of balance, where we lose the very balance that makes us an individual.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
The things in our personal lives that make us whole human beings, that make us passionate, we want to take some of the passion into our work, that's what makes us human, that's what creates human connection is our ability to do that. So it also means that, as a result, everything in work works towards our self-esteem, right? So the joy that we get, the visceral reaction that we get at work, the passion, the dopamine hit, the serotonin, all of the things that bring us joy, suddenly are all linked to work, because that's where we spend 75% of our time, and there's no off button.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
But when we experience a disappointment, when someone tells us we didn't achieve what we were meant to achieve, or those milestones, or we're a poor leader, or we're a bad manager, or something we were not expecting, it hits us viscerally. We feel emotionally impacted from it, and some people suffer post-traumatic stress syndrome from it. I don't want to liken that condition to those soldiers who face that in tough conditions in extreme life and death situations, but we can't underestimate, as human beings, when we spend so much of our time and our whole self-esteem is built around getting the next bonus, hitting and closing the next project, hitting numbers that we've been set, it's how we're rewarded, and it's what we're responding to. We're rewarded with these things. It gives us the dopamine. It becomes addictive. We get the next position, we get the next pay rise, we get the next bonus, and suddenly our whole life is about that, and what do we sacrifice to do it? We sacrifice time with our family, with our husbands, with our partners, with children, with our best friends. We probably don't see our best friends maybe four times a year. Doesn't that become nuts? Doesn't that mean that we're giving up so for these things. It's got to be absolutely worth it, really worth it.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
We really need to understand the importance of balance, to listen to our hearts, to listen to... And our bodies will tell us when we've got a backache, when things are hurting, when we've got shortness of breath. Our bodies are telling us the stress, the impact on us, the way we're working, what we're doing to ourselves, is unhealthy, and it's not sustainable, and we have to listen. Sometimes being still and listening to our bodies and our minds and where it's taking us, is all the more important to ensure that we survive the next 20 years, that we can work and support our families or support ourselves, and we can achieve the things that we need to achieve, but balance is really critical.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
If our self-esteem is so linked to our work and our job, it means that our leaders almost replicate our parents. So we put them on pedestals, and when they're not human we're very disappointed, but we don't need to put them on pedestals, we need to see them as human. They need to operate as human beings, which means they need to show vulnerability. They need to admit that they don't always know the answers. Actually, that humanizes them, and it enables us to develop a relationship with them that allows us to understand how we behave and how we adjust.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
So when humans, when bosses and leaders and CEOS or emerging leaders, depending on where you are in your stage of development and progression, you come in and you say, "This is what I did. This is what I felt passionate about." "I ran 5K for this charity." "I went and painted a house," or, "I joined the mutual aid group to help anyone who needed help with shopping who's vulnerable during lockdown period." It makes us feel good about them. Their lessons, how they behave, may influence us to do a good thing, but it might just make us feel really good by knowing someone who's doing that, and perhaps us donating to them. Good begets good, and I think that there is a ripple effect. I think courage is contagious. I think kindness, compassion, humility, is contagious. But I Think we have to stop and think about how and what our self-esteem is being built on, and we need to find balance, otherwise, what happens at work is going to impact us viscerally, emotionally, and perhaps put us out of kilter. Finding balance is really important.
Michelle Carvill:
I think that's a beautiful message to bring this wonderful interview to a close end, because that balance, that reconnection, that really understanding, this is going to resonate with... if people are really transparent and honest with themselves, with so many people, deeply. And that takes some courage to really acknowledge that as well, because-
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Yeah. I mean, there are things that we can be too transparent about. Let's not be transparent about the sort of things that will... People don't want to know what's in your porridge or perhaps they don't want to know what your inside leg measurement is. Yeah, some things that are always private and should remain private.
Michelle Carvill:
[crosstalk 00:44:38]-
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
There is a danger of over-sharing too. So I think there's always a balance to be struck.
Michelle Carvill:
There's always a balance, but if it's definitely all one way and it's not working, then it's bring that human aspect to it and reset. And now is the perfect to time to be thinking of all of... It is this time where there's been so much... People are so much more forgiving and there's less expectation around... We're seeing into people's homes and lives through Zoom in ways that-
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
We are.
Michelle Carvill:
... we never have done before, and things that would have seemed unusual are now normal. There is a difference. So it's a great opportunity to just let those masks go.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
It is. The only thing I would say is, as you were speaking, one of the things that did occur to me and I think it's important to share, which is that, I follow on the news media multiple news media outlets, and so, one of my closest friend challenged me as to why I was following a particular news media, and I said to her, "It was really important to me to follow the news media I trusted, but it was just as important for me to understand the contrary views, those who are contrary to what I am saying, those whose viewpoints perhaps I don't trust or believe in, but I needed to hear them so that I could form my own opinion."
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
The digital era allows me to do that in a way that's respectful. I don't need to subscribe to these. These are available, really available. Again, that is because I think diversity of voice, diversity of views, are really important. I've learned quite a lot from that debate. I've learned a lot about where people come from who have diverse views, and I really respect it, and actually they have changed my mind about certain things. It arose during the horrible Brexit debate, but it did arise because I know that some people voted because they saw the impact it was having on their children's education, and how schools had gone from top-performing schools to perhaps not-so-top-performing schools because English became a second language, a lot of resource and time were going to other children who were immigrants or perhaps who were refugees, and people reacted emotionally, and there was nothing wrong with the way they reacted. They reacted because their children were missing out, and that's the generation they cared about, and those are the people they cared about.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
I respect that point of view, and think that if we can change our point of view because we are willing to hear diverse voices and views, that says a lot about who we are, and it's that tolerance. We need tolerance more than ever before. Yes, I talk about kindness, compassion, humility, but we also need tolerance. We need to listen, and we are closing ourselves off. The only negative of social media is the risk of being fed only what we want to hear, and that is a really important red light warning that we have to address. I know you talk about it, but it's understanding and self-regulating, and that is the reason why I listen to other and read other news. It's upsetting, sometimes it's really upsetting, so beware. Those things can be upsetting, but at least you are informed.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. And you're right. The beauty of the social media, in many ways, is that, in the negative side, you can just be in your bubble, just listening to the loop of everything you want to hear because realistic people will hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see if left to their own devices and staying within their comfort zones. But the beauty is that you can very, very easily tune into lots of different views and hear the views of so many. Like you, I'm in a number of various groups, and the opinions that I listen to, it changes your thinking. It changes [crosstalk 00:48:38]-
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Yeah, it does.
Michelle Carvill:
It stretches you.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
It does.
Michelle Carvill:
It stretches you, and sometimes it makes you uncomfortable that you're being stretched that way, but that's how you learn and grow, right? You don't grow unless you stretch a little bit.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
It is, and then I think in part it's always... I guess my initial career training as a lawyer has always taught me that there's always another side to the story, and that judges listen to both sides of the story and they weigh up where they're going to make the decision, and I really, in my heart, believe that. I believe that social justice. I believe in that equality. I believe in justice first off, and for me, that has shaped how I now operate in the commercial world. I'm always willing to hear both sides of the story, always willing to turn things upside down and look at it from a different perspective, and I'm always open to hear someone else's story. As Voltaire said, "I'm willing to die for your ability to argue and have a different opinion," because I think that is such an important aspect of who we are today. But if you have only hate to share, then I exercise my right to switch you off. That's the beauty of social media too, can simply switch that off.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes. Unfollow. Brilliant. To round this up, I'd like to askk just three questions of you, Nilema. It's just a bit of... I mean, I feel like we've really got to hear a lot about your views, and this is just three quickfire, learn about the podcaster. If you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Oh, that's a hard question. I think I would ask everyone who works to do two things. Either, if you work, to donate your time once a year, or periodically, to furtherance of education for children, disadvantaged children, as mandatory. Alternatively, to donate to education causes that help disadvantaged children. So I'd like to make that a mandatory process in some form or another, like your national insurance contributions.
Michelle Carvill:
Fantastic. Highly practical. Sounds highly doable.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
I hope so.
Michelle Carvill:
[inaudible 00:50:54] What about books? Which book have you read recently? I know you love to read, so which book have you read recently that's inspired you?
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
That's a trick question because you know I've got about 17 different books on the camera. The ones that I read and reread and go back to regularly, and I'm addicted, is Simon Sinek's Leaders Eat Last, and Brene Brown's Dare to Lead or Daring Greatly. I keep listening to them on podcasting. I listen to their audible books. I reread them.
Michelle Carvill:
They're great books.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
I think their messaging is beautiful and grounds me, and it inspires me to continue to try and live their vision, as well as try and live the way that I believe is the right way to be in work, as well as personally.
Michelle Carvill:
Fantastic. Yeah, and they've come up a couple of times on this podcast, so we're all in good company. Last, but certainly not least, what's the best piece of advice you've been given to date?
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Hands down, my mother's advice, which was, education is the passport to your world.
Michelle Carvill:
Oh, wonderful. And that's why you do the wonderful work that you do with Plan UK, isn't it now?
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Michelle Carvill:
Nilema, how can people find out more about the work that you do with Plan, about your wonderful event, Courageous Leaders Event? I say event, but it's not an event, it's a movement that you've started, and it's really very special. How can people connect with you if they want carry on the conversation with you?
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
I'm open to connection. So I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me under my name, Nilema Bhakta-Jones. You can find me on Twitter, which is @NBJNiloo, N-I-L-
Michelle Carvill:
I'll put all the links in for you.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
And Courageous Leaders has its own website. It needs a confess. I do it on the side of my day job, but it's there and it tells you all about what we do. There's a JustGiving site, and more than anything else, even if you don't come to Courageous Leaders, look at Plan International's work. Plan International do some phenomenal work, and I wholeheartedly recommend you looking them up. They are international, so they're based in every territory. They help children around the world, and their work is beautiful.
Michelle Carvill:
Perfect. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your time, your-
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Thank you.
Michelle Carvill:
... wonderful [crosstalk 00:53:24] thoughts and your energy and passion, and bringing all of that to the Connected Leader Podcast. You are well and truly a connected leader.
Nilema Bhakta-Jones:
Thank you so much, Michelle. And thank you to everyone listening. I really appreciate the privilege of your time and your ears.
Michelle Carvill:
You've been listening to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast. Thank you to my guest, and indeed, thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it, and indeed subscribe to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms, and all episodes are also on our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts. You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site too. So be sure to check those out. For now, from me, Michelle Carvill, your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in, and good-bye. Oh, P.S. If you're business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies, and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me, michelle@carvillcreative.co.uk.