Get Social - The Connected Leader Podcast - Sarah Walker-Smith, CEO of Shakespeare Martineau

Michelle Carvill:
Hello, and welcome to the get social connected leader podcast, where I Michelle Carvill interview business leaders around the practicalities of how in this hyper-connected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate. You can find all episodes of the podcast together with show notes via our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts.
Michelle Carvill:
In this episode of the get social connected leader podcast, I'm delighted to interview Sarah Walker Smith. Sarah is the CEO of Shakespeare Martineau. She is the first female non-lawyer CEO in the legal top 50. A trained accountant, having worked with PWC and Deloitte. Sarah puts people at the core of everything she does, as well as the marketing and branding experience gained whilst at Boots PLC. Sarah looks to challenge the norm in the legal sector and wider business world. She's passionate about leveling the playing field, encouraging everyone to bring that authentic selves to work. She strongly believes that good business is both purposeful and profitable often with one leading to the other.
Michelle Carvill:
So Sarah, welcome to the connected leader podcast.
Sarah Walker Smith:
Hi, Michelle, great to be here Monday morning, airing to go.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, Monday morning. And so I came across you, Sarah, on social media, which is how I found many of the leaders that I've interviewed on this podcast. And you were talking not only about how being a connected leader on social and going about your everyday work and utilizing the channels. But you were also talking about the role of leadership and purpose. And that really attracted me to really want to get you onto the podcast for a number of reasons. One, because you're a digitally connected leader and you're out there and you're being vocal and you're utilizing and harnessing and championing those social and digital technologies in a way, that they can be used for that connectivity, but also this piece around the purpose of leadership.
Michelle Carvill:
And I know that this is something very close to your heart and something that you feel very strongly around. So I thought that whilst we will talk about your social activity and how you got into that and how that is developing. I'd like to start particularly given the current landscape around leaders and leaders showing up and needing to show up in not only when times are good, but in very challenging and difficult times. What this sense of purpose means, how it aligns people, how it steers guides? What's you view take position when it comes to that?
Sarah Walker Smith:
So I started being fascinated by purpose in terms leadership and organizational development, probably about six or seven years ago. And I've always been a strong believer in having a good vision and a good strategy and everything. But the more I started to research the subject, I realized that genuinely there is evidence that the more purposeful organizations will have more motivated people and will have better results. And there's a big correlation between the three. In fact, a chap called Dan Pontefract wrote a book, about 2016, I think called The purpose Effect. And he was arguing that personal purpose, organizational purpose and then the job role that somebody plays within an organization will drive high motivation, high performance. And I really started to get into that. And around about that time, I think I clarified what my personal purpose was. And then I realized I had to be in a role in an organization where there was that bit in the middle of the Venn diagram.
Sarah Walker Smith:
So if you think of this three circles, what's the bit in the middle? The organizational, the personal, and being in a role where you can actually do something about it. So by hook or by crook, I've found myself in a situation where now my personal purpose and my organization's purpose and the role that I'm doing is very aligned. So I was already in that space thinking this was the way forward, thinking about leadership in the 21st century, the needs of people in the future. We know so much more as new generations are coming into the workplace, this matters increasingly, and that was already there. Then of course we have the most horrendous situation developed earlier this year with COVID. And I think it's just been amplified. I think meaning for individuals and businesses is even more relevant now.
Sarah Walker Smith:
And I think it will be increasingly because we all know we're not going back to any normality as we knew it before. I mean, I personally wants us to go back to something better than we had before. But that's going to take a huge amount of effort and drive and we need to have purpose to pull us through the that and to give us the resilience, the tenacity and everything else we need to drive for a better world in the future and makes a meaning out of this terrible thing that's happened. So I'm all over it at the moment.
Michelle Carvill:
Wonderful, and I suppose where some of the challenge comes with purpose, and I couldn't agree with you more. That element of being in the role and being able to do something with the purpose where your purpose aligns with the organizational purpose, but then you can actually do something because I should imagine is that there's a lot of frustration. I know personally myself, when I wasn't in a role where I could affect the change, it can become very frustrating. And you see great leaders move from one organization where they're clearly frustrated and they can't through and they move into something where they can break through and great change and great shifts happened. From a commercial perspective, because I know you're very commercially focused as well. I mean, you drive very successful organizations.
Michelle Carvill:
How does it fit commercially? Because I think for some people and some leaders and some organizations that's where it falls down. It's like, "Oh, well, you can't be all driven around that." We've got to drive the profits. Where does that sit with-
Sarah Walker Smith:
Hat means exactly the same thing? I'm a chartered accountant and I'm still believe in the capital model about creating value and all of those things. But it is the same thing. You can't separate them. The minute you separate them you're totally missing the point. So the fact here is if I have a stronger personal vision, I can lead and hopefully lead a group of people to come up with a collective vision of our business, which will not motivate them. They'll be more connected, more motivated, work harder for the business. But where that really transcends then is our brand starts to mean something more in the external marketplace.
Sarah Walker Smith:
Our customers are happier because the people looking after them are happy and developed and feeling good about what they do. And then you drive growth. And of course you drive the bottom line. But no one must think that being purposeful is being soft or uncommercial. I just totally well reject that notion. It's not at all. In fact, if anything, I found that having very strong values and purpose helps me make difficult decisions because I can make it with that context. And it's actually easier to be... I've been much more decisive actually, since I've had that. And sometimes you're making very difficult decisions. It doesn't mean that you're not going to have to face sometimes downturns or economic problems or challenges. But you're doing it from a connection to something that you know why you're doing it and you're doing the right thing.
Sarah Walker Smith:
And I actually think that's helps people be better leaders as well.
Michelle Carvill:
I mean, you'd think that when you, cause it's your guide, it's your steer, it's being aligned. Are we on purpose? Does it fit. So from a decision making perspective that really is a practical guide. So purpose for you, where does it come in I suppose hierarchy? Is it your purpose that can then be reflected into the organization, bringing people with you and then manifesting through the brand? What's the [inaudible 00:08:25].
Sarah Walker Smith:
So there's got to be a high correlation. If you're going to be a very visible leader and lead from the front, there has to be a high correlation between your own personal values and personal purpose and what you're doing in your organization.
Sarah Walker Smith:
Otherwise, you're living a lie, you're not being authentic. And we all know that authentic leadership is essentially absolutely needed at the moment so that you can just be who you are not have to try and pretend to be something else. So there's got to be a high correlation. And if you imagine that Venn diagram, it doesn't need to be the circle, but there needs to be big overlap. However, it's so important that you don't just walk in and inflict your vision and your values onto... We've got 900 people. So what I did, I've been in the role now for about 16, 17 months. And I knew where I was coming from. And I knew enough before I joined the organization, when I was going through a very lengthy headhunting process that I worked out, that there was enough correlation. And I thought given where I wanted to go with things, it would work.
Sarah Walker Smith:
But to cut a long story short. I spent the first three, four months just getting to know people in the organization and trying really hard not to go, "This is what I think we should do, and this is why..." Even though I knew what I wanted to do, I then found a way of bringing a shadow board together to work alongside the main board. We did a lot of workshops, spent a lot of time listening to people around the business. And then we took that group away, locked them literally in a forest for a week and came out at the other end with words that were then collective words. So there was enough of me in there for me to be totally connected with it. But far more importantly, it was owned by a much bigger group of people. I'm talking a lot about pebbles at the moment.
Sarah Walker Smith:
You have to forgive me on this one, but what you've done is you've thrown lots of little pebbles. So rather than you trying to be one giant pebble and create a ripple, the more pebbles you throw, the more that ripple will gather momentum and gain force. And at the moment, I think we have a very strong sense of growing shared purpose in the organization. And so for me, that's now more important than my personal purpose, but the two things are really correlated.
Michelle Carvill:
Brilliant, and there's some practicality there as to, I love the fact that it wasn't you commanding control. This is the way we're doing it. You're aligned, but you're also bringing everybody with you that pebbles, the shared voice because there has to be ownership, doesn't it? There has to be ownership, not by you, but by the organization of that purpose.
Michelle Carvill:
So one of the points you touched on there was around being a visible leader. Leading from the front. And of course you do this in many ways and I came across you because you do this utilizing the social technologies. I mean, you're utilizing the social technologies. Where do you think they sit from a communication perspective? For you as a leader, outwards around what your organization stands for and you leading that? And also for you as a leader to your employees and the voice that you have internally with those employees, where do they fit? I talk about the connected leader. How do these social technologies support that for you?
Sarah Walker Smith:
So you've got to bring your whole self into the job even more so now than you did. And I think social media gives me the chance to be even more authentic.
Sarah Walker Smith:
I feel much happier recording a video or a podcast and putting it out, whether it's internal or external comeback to that, then I do trying to write a long email. You can't get your personality across people misconstrue your words. You're not making that connection. So for me, social media really does allow me to be all of me the job and to allow some of that individuality personality, et cetera, come into it as well. I think you can be better understood and understand others. And this is really important. Social media, I think, is a two way tool and that's really important as well. So for me, it's one of several tools. Now, of course, you can use social media in lots of different ways. The written word, video podcasts, all different things, just little sound bite.
Sarah Walker Smith:
So I think you have to break the tool down and not just use it in a single way as well. And of course there are different social media channels, but you need to really use it in as many different ways as you possibly can at different times for different reasons. So it's a complex channel, but of course it's not the only channel and you won't get to everybody you want through social media because some people still don't use it. So you have to do it as part of a mix, but coming back to the internal and external, my objective is to be able to say virtually the same things to both audiences. Now, occasionally there might be things that are more appropriate for a period of time for an internal audience, if something's commercial confidential or whatever it may be.
Sarah Walker Smith:
But my philosophy is just be transparent and say pretty much the same message and the same thing both internally and externally. So when I'm on external social media, I'm thinking about my teams and my people, as much as I'm thinking about clients or influences or just connections or other business leaders. Because essentially people are just people. And if you want to build trust, which I do personally as a leader, but also as a brand, the more you can just give the same message and be completely transparent and blur those boundaries between the inside and the outside. I think that's the way modern businesses builds trust.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, and I like that, blurred the boundaries. Because I think that there is that almost separation sometimes between this is how we operate internally and now we're going outside. And it's the same thing, isn't it? Because those employees are often your consumers.
Sarah Walker Smith:
Absolutely, [inaudible 00:14:16] exhausting that would be, to have to try and be two different people. One internally, one externally? Why do you need to do that anymore? We need to challenge these outdated, old fashioned paradigms. I don't think that's what people want from their leaders anymore. And we know from some of the recent trust research that business leaders are stepping into a vacuum that is recognized now in terms of what needs to happen in society. And some of the stuff that I put out over the last few weeks, I've talked about the new abnormal. And then over this weekend, I've put something out about business leaders being pebbles, back to my pebble analogy. Because I think we've to fill that gap.
Sarah Walker Smith:
But what we can't do is fall into the trap, doing it in a political way. I think we just need to be out there leading, authentically, driving it broadly in the same direction and helping to collectively and collaboratively transcend the boundaries of our organizations so that we can actually increase things for everybody. And I just think if you've got to do all of that, and you've also got to worry about how am I internally, how am I externally? Who am I talking to? Just so simple, if you're just yourself. You're taking away all of that additional burden and workload and you will build trust and you build relationships and connections.
Michelle Carvill:
You do. And it's so difficult though, isn't it? Because it's not so difficult. I think it's becoming easier. We are transitioning from this. I call it mask wearing. Where you, you think you have to show up in a certain way or your role it comes with a set of rules and regulations and you can't just be yourself. And like you say, that must be exhausting. But also a bit soul destroying as well, because you just can't be you. So then it becomes exhausting. I should imagine.
Sarah Walker Smith:
Well, and I think that's why a lot of people avoid social media because they don't have enough time and energy to constantly reinvent themselves or to worry about what people are going to say. Or should I say this, shouldn't I say this. And I've just stopped worrying. I pull it all back again to values and purpose. And am I saying things for the right reason? And am I being true to myself and being respectful to other people, which is massively important. And if I am, I've now just decided to stop worrying about it.
Michelle Carvill:
Good, well, I really like that. And so your role as the leader in social media and taking the role that you do and you talk externally, you talk internally, has that encouraged other people within your organization then to do the same.
Sarah Walker Smith:
Yeah, as you'd expect. But I want them to do it because they want to do it and they feel comfortable with it and they can do it in the way that I've just described. So I would never force anybody who it's not their bag. And for some people, it really isn't their bag. They'd be possibly more comfortable picking up the phone and having a chat with the client. Brilliant, do that. That's what the clients want us to do. So this idea of being yourself, you can't then rubber stamp a process or a set of rules onto people and say, "Be yourself, but do it like this." So I'm trying to lead the way in to show people, it's okay to do this. And it's a good thing to do, but not if it doesn't sit with them and their values and everything else.
Sarah Walker Smith:
So now I'm delighted and we've got some absolutely fantastic people internally who are even more active on social media than I am. And it works for them, fantastic. What I want to do is let everybody know they have the permission to do it, and we'll give them the support to do it, whether it's training or tips from the BD teams or whoever it may be. But we're not going to force them to do it if it doesn't sit with them, because then they won't do it well. If you try and force around pegs into square holes, it's never going to work out well. So for people who it's rightful absolutely go for it and we'll give them all the support we can.
Michelle Carvill:
And I suppose that raises an interesting dilemma then for those leaders. Because there is almost a expectation now and we've seen it, particularly during these challenging times where people expect the leaders of an organization to be visible, to be transparent, to be coming out and saying something. We mentioned some of these surveys that have been done around trust and expectation of leaders. Consumers expect leaders to solve more ILS than governments. They expect them to have a stance and to have a say. So for those leaders that do not feel comfortable with these channels or tool, do you feel that they... I know we were talking square peg round hole, but is it becoming part of the role if you're taking that leadership stance? If you're CEO, if you're a leader out there, can you ignore these channels, even if you don't feel comfortable with them?
Sarah Walker Smith:
So probably going to say something quite controversial here, but this is me. I think those leaders need to ask themselves if they're still really doing the right job, quite frankly. Because the demands of leadership are changing and changing very rapidly. Now, to be fair, there are certain leadership roles where it's more important to be visible than others. You may be leading a very small organization and you can be very visible internally and your external reputation doesn't master quite the same. So, I don't want to presume that every business is the same. But I do think it's a role of all leaders now to be authentic, connected, visible, empathetic and brave and to have an opinion. And I'm sorry, I think that's part of the job. So some people have reasons that they perhaps feel uncomfortable or not yet ready to do that.
Sarah Walker Smith:
And I would encourage them to start small and have a go. I mean, I've only been doing it really for about 18 months and really heavily since probably about December actually. I've really ramped it up again in December. So it's never too late. Just try it. What's the worst that could happen. And I think, start small and just see what you get. But I've been astonished at the level of engagement I've got just by being honest. And I use humor, sometimes I'm talking about serious things. Sometimes I'm talking about funny things. I've been singing on social media. I've just decided to literally be myself. And the response has been absolutely phenomenal. And it's made me realize that human beings want to connect to other human beings, irrespective of what your job title is. You are still a person. And I think if people could get past that, they will be better leaders. You don't need to be on social media every day, but just be yourself and your people will respond.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, absolutely. And with regards to, you said, "You've been amazed about the level of engagement." What things have you learned from being out on social media? Is there anything that you think I'm surprised by that apart from just that genuine connection that people just want to connect with people? Is there anything else that you would say I was really surprised about stuff that you've learned. The things that have come up that you just wouldn't have been able to have known or done without those technologies?
Sarah Walker Smith:
So what's really surprised me and I alluded to this earlier is that I can see now it's actually a two way interactive media, far more than I thought. I mean, go back a couple of years. I thought it's about having a press release, work it out onto LinkedIn, Twitter, wherever you put it, just work it out there. I've realized now that's not the point. It's absolutely about to two way and it is genuinely about building connections. And then these connections like we have collaborate them over something. So I used to think of it as a PR channel. And I realized now it's absolutely not.
Sarah Walker Smith:
So the other aspect of social media that's really surprised me is how much I'm getting from it. I'd say almost I get more from it than I'm getting by giving out. And that's because I understand different perspectives. It challenges my thinking sometimes, I learn, I connect with other like-minded leaders and then because I'm so believing in this abundance mentality about us all driving things forward together, it's allowed me to really join the dots. So I didn't expect that. I thought it was one way. It's being the two way and the multichannel that's really surprised me.
Michelle Carvill:
I mean, it really is a key communication, isn't it? It really is a conversation. It's continuous conversations. And for me, I'm able to spot things as well. I'm able to look at opportunities. I've learned lots of things. I've met incredible people that I just wouldn't ordinarily all around the world, ordinarily be able to connect with.
Sarah Walker Smith:
That global point is hugely important. There are no barriers on social media. There's no physical barriers. You go to a networking event in this country, it's highly unlikely you're going to meet people from the States. I've connected with people from Africa, from the States, from Eastern Europe. It's fabulous, it's just removes all the boundaries.
Michelle Carvill:
It does. And then of course, when you meet people locally, and even if they are from another part of the world, then you can connect with them online, offline. It builds that connection. And most of those connections now are likely to be started digitally. When people are looking at you, they're looking at your digital profile, they're looking at your web profile. Those partnerships, those potential new relationships networks there starting digitally. So not being present means you're missing out on-
Sarah Walker Smith:
Absolutely, but also if you adopt the mentality rather than I'm afraid of this, or I don't think it's right, or I'm not into social media, whatever, it might be, change that mindset round and go, well, what's the worst that could happen and what have I got to lose and start there? And if you just flip that round, what you've done is you've put yourself into an enabling mindset, which means you can start down that track.
Michelle Carvill:
And I think that is great advice. And it's advice that we hear a lot on the podcast. Just start small. And often just start by listening and looking as to what is going on. Because that in itself builds that confidence. Is it all I need to do? So, yes. So wonderful. So thank you so much. One last question before I move on to my three five questions? What about balancing your personal? I mean, you've said that, "You are you." You're seeing you've done... So does balancing sometimes, and it's a question I get asked a lot. How do I balance my personal life with business professional life? I'm guessing in your case, you're going to say it's one and the same, but.
Sarah Walker Smith:
Yeah, it is. What I would say is we all need a boundary and that boundary might be somewhere different depending on how private you are, your personal circumstances, whatever it may be. So, I do still have a boundary. There's some things that I wouldn't just put straight into social media, depending on what they were and being really respectful of the members of your family or your friends or the community that you're part of. If they're not comfortable with being dragged into it, you can't suddenly say right now, fair game, everybody's in. So I am very respectful of that. My difference is I can choose how much of me I bring to the party. I can't make the choice for other people around me. So I tend to blow the boundary when it comes to me professionally and personally, I don't bringing in my family too much because they're not comfortable with it.
Sarah Walker Smith:
And that said, when it is relevant, I do. But I, again, I'm just very respectful to their views. So I think you need to know where your personal boundary is and you stick with that. Just don't make assumptions about the people around you. So that's one thing I would say. The other thing I would say is, and people are afraid of this trolling. So I'm going to touch on it now. And I'm probably going to ask for trouble by saying this. But I've only ever had one vaguely negative interaction with somebody on social media. And I'm sure, perhaps is my profile goes I'm embracing myself for it to be even worse. Where somebody was very judgmental about me and came back and said, "You clearly have such a perfect life, blah, blah, blah." And I felt instantly very sorry for that person, because it was quite clear that that person was struggling with something.
Sarah Walker Smith:
So I then tried to engage and then I realized very quickly, no, that's another place you have to have boundaries. You can't start trying to rescue that attack you, which is my natural instinct. And you do also get contacted a huge amount. Sometimes I have sometimes dozens of messages, let alone all the comments that I get on posts and various other things. And you just need to be comfortable with yourself that if that starts to go into your personal life too much, because you are spending hours a day on social media. You just need to know what your boundaries are. And I do always try and reply to everybody or interact with people. But sometimes you mustn't beat yourself up if you are overwhelmed by it and you sometimes go, no, that's my boundary. And I can't respond to everybody and everything. So I think once you've worked out what those boundaries are, then I think just again, be yourself.
Michelle Carvill:
Fantastic, and I was going to say, what piece of advice would you give not only fellow leaders, but aspiring leaders. And I think boundaries.
Sarah Walker Smith:
Don't be disappointed if not everybody agrees with you. And what you're trying to do is understand other people's viewpoints and get a debate going sometimes. So if everybody agreed with you, I would say, "You're not really getting through and you're not getting debate." Somebody once said to me... It was actually said to somebody else in a different conversation, but "How many people don't like you," and the person who answered said, "Well, everybody likes me." And the challenge back was, "Well, you're not leading then, are you?" Because as leaders, we have views, we have opinions. And if we're brave enough to share them, clearly not, everybody's going to agree with it. So don't take it personally if they don't.
Michelle Carvill:
Lovely, wonderful, okay, so I like to end. I feel like we've got to know a little bit more about you, Sarah, and definitely how you all authentic and lead that way and are comfortable with leading on your purpose and just being you, which is wonderful. So I'd like to ask you some questions, three very quick fire questions, just to learn a little bit more about your views away from social, but they sometimes will align and sometimes, we'll come back to the same thing. And so I'm going to ask you these questions, just top of the head answers. Pretty big questions. If you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?
Sarah Walker Smith:
Well, the [inaudible 00:29:04] answer is, I would get Donald Trump out of the White House now, or at least on the 1st of November or whenever the election is. But on a make a note. What that really stands for is I want a win mentality across the world and abundance mentality where people are not scoring points by trying to win, lose. If we all went for win-win, the world would be a better place.
Michelle Carvill:
Wonderful, I mean, you mentioned the Purpose Effect book that you read that you enjoyed, but what have you read recently that's inspired you? Are you a reader? Do you like to read a lot.
Sarah Walker Smith:
I do. But actually what I've been doing a lot recently is watching films and this one will probably come as a surprise. It's not the obvious thing that I suspect people saying this, but I watched the film called Once, last night. And it was made in the late 2000s. It was made on $115,000 and it took maybe 30 million at the Box Office. And the reason I was so inspired by this... This is a quick fire, so I'm not going to go into the detail, but essentially they challenged the norms. They made a film that they shouldn't have been able to make for that money and it was massively successful. And I just love the idea that you break the rules, you try something new and you get [inaudible 00:30:15].
Sarah Walker Smith:
So I found that incredibly inspiring when I read the backstory about how they made that film. The film was great, but the backstory is even more inspiring.
Michelle Carvill:
I don't think I've seen that. I'd know if I've seen it. So I'm going to look at that.
Sarah Walker Smith:
Read the back story as well.
Michelle Carvill:
I will. I love that. And what's the best piece of advice you've been given to date?
Sarah Walker Smith:
This one's tough because I've been given so much amazing advice by so many wise and wonderful and generous people. But the one that's really resonating for me at the moment as we're going through the changes is to meet people where they're at.
Sarah Walker Smith:
So you go to them and you bring them with you. That's the one that's top of mind for me at the moment.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, love that. Sarah, it's been an absolute joy. I'm so glad we finally got to have a conversation. We're not really in face to face right now. I'm sure that'll happen one day, but it's as close as over zoom. And I'll continue to look forward to our Twitter conversations about our other conversations on social media. But thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Sarah Walker Smith:
Absolute pleasure, thank you.
Michelle Carvill:
You've been listening to the get social connected leader podcast. Thank you to my guest. And indeed, thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it. And indeed, subscribe to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms and all episodes are also on our website. carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts. You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site too. So be sure to check those out. So for now, from me, Michelle Carvill your host on the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in and goodbye. Oh, P.S. If you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me michelle@carvercreative.co.uk.