Get Social - The Connected Leader Podcast - Matt Crabtree, founder and principal partner of Positive Momentum

Michelle Carvill:
Hello and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader podcast, where I, Michelle Carvill, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how, in this hyperconnected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate. You can find all episodes of the podcast, together with show notes, via our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts.
Michelle Carvill:
In this episode of the Get Social Connected Leader podcast, I'm delighted to interview Matt Crabtree. Matt is the founder and principal partner of Positive Momentum. He's an unusual combination of farmer turned corporate guy. After spending the first 20 years of his life in the world of agriculture, he significantly changed direction and started a corporate career that accelerated quickly, achieving his first executive board position running sales function of a 500 million telecoms company at just 28, and then went on to become the youngest senior executives at Barclays Bank at only 31.
Michelle Carvill:
Today, he travels the world, often collaborating with other Positive Momentum partners, delivering services to a wide range of progressive companies that really want to shake up the way they do things. He's renowned for speaking at conferences on leadership change and transformation and growth, providing one to one coaching, running selective training workshops and an increasing portfolio of advisory work. So Matt, welcome to The Connected Leader podcast.
Matt Crabtree:
Thanks so much for having me. Delighted to be here.
Michelle Carvill:
So it's great to have you here. We've met a couple of times around at events where we've been talking about courageous leadership. I follow... In fact, it prompted me to get in touch to get you on the podcast, because I saw a wonderful interview that you were giving and that was shared on LinkedIn. I know you're very active on the social media channels. So I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about how you got started with social media, and where that fits in for you as the leader of your organization.
Matt Crabtree:
Yeah. Social media and me sort of have an interesting, probably slightly checkered, background in some ways, in the sense that I started my consulting company in 2003, and I don't remember exactly the year LinkedIn started, you probably do, but I remember having a badge for a while on my LinkedIn profile that said I was in the first million members. And I don't think it's an understatement to say that LinkedIn is probably the thing that's made the biggest difference to the success of my consulting firm. I'm not sure I could have sustained it in the way that I have without LinkedIn, and it's become at the very core of what we do. And we built an operating system for our team of consultants and it has LinkedIn activity at its core. We use others channels less, and I guess we might explore those over the next few minutes, but I can't overstate how significant it's been in the development of my consulting business.
Michelle Carvill:
And is that because you were utilizing the channel to expand your networks, or to nurture the network's you already had to kind of... In what way has it been so significant?
Matt Crabtree:
I'd say it's much more about nurturing than expanding for me. I think there's a lot of activity on these channels about having huge scale networks and connecting with anyone and everyone. And we've always had a policy that we connect with people that we know. So if we meet somebody, we have a meaningful interaction with them, it's a sort of almost default reaction to connect with them, so that we can follow their insights, they can follow our insights, and this sort of passive digital relationship quietly developing in the background. And we like the subtlety of that.
Matt Crabtree:
I don't like the bluntness of the request for connection from people I've never heard of entirely spurious reasons. I find that all slightly nauseating. But it's much more for us about that nurturing of relationships. Michelle, we're all so busy aren't we, right? We are doing a million and one different things. And, therefore, we want to show up on a platform, but in a somewhat unobtrusive way. And we've convinced ourselves, maybe rightly or wrongly, but we've convinced ourselves that LinkedIn is somewhat unobtrusive. At least it's choice for somebody to look at it. And, if they notice us periodically, then that's just ding, a little reminder that we're there and may be a little reminder that we know what we're talking about with something and might lead to a conversation that might lead to something.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. So that's very much the positioning of you sharing your thought leadership, isn't it? That expertise, that viewpoint on the work that you do, and allowing that to be slowly dripped out in snackable, easily digestible ways to those audiences that you're working with or nurturing in some way. I've seen that you write content, you share content, is that something then as you have... Is it the people that are part of your team, you've brought them on [inaudible 00:05:35] said, “This is what I do, you do this.”? Or is it that it's just organically become just a way of how you all operate?
Matt Crabtree:
I mean, I think it's become it organically, but that organic growth has now become a significant part of what we do in the way that we do it.
Michelle Carvill:
Okay.
Matt Crabtree:
And if I'm really honest, I look at an organization like McKinsey as a bit of a very high watermark. It galls me to recommend another consulting firm, but I'm afraid I must, because the quality of their insight work is extraordinary. I mean, it is phenomenally good journalism, if nothing else. But the practicality of it, the applicability of it, the breadth of it, the depth of it, the substance of it, it's a bit of a high watermark for us. And we look at that and think that's how that organization has attempted to become what they call the world's trusted adviser. And in our own little way, 40 consultants around the world, in our own little way, that's kind of how we'd like to be seen by our clients. And we've seen that by working at that, using channels, social media channels, you can, a, help people... So, honestly, part of my hope is it helps loads of people who would never even contemplate buying from us, right?
Matt Crabtree:
So I suspect 98% of the people who read our material are never even going to imagine buying from us, but hopefully we make the world a slightly, better place and help people a little bit. There's the 2%, who either have bought from us before, or might think of buying from us in the future, and it's paying it forward a bit, right? It's being open, it's open sourcing our insight, and, if that leads to a more substantive conversation about some work, then great, and if it doesn't, well, that's fine too. But we are definitely standing on the shoulders of giants. I'm afraid there's little new creative thought behind this. We are mimicking others.
Michelle Carvill:
But you are showing and telling the work that you're doing. It's showing what's going on in the inside, sharing that out, so that others can clearly understand the work that you do and the expertise going on within your consultancy.
Matt Crabtree:
That's true, although what we don't do is push case studies out or big haurrahs about new contracts we've won. We find that slightly nauseating, to be honest, and so we're relatively low level about that. In fact, we don't really talk about that at all. We share our experience and our points of view on a particular topic. And we share what we call no nonsense business expertise. So we share practical advice. I and my colleagues are all former business leaders, so we've all worked in industry, very often in very large corporates, so we've got a very practical point of view. It's not academic, it's very practical. It's very applicable for somebody so they can go, they can take it and apply it in the real world quite fast. And that's our strategy, if you like, is to put that message out there, as I say, in the certain knowledge that that lots of people will read it, they might use it and so that's fine, right? They might never buy from us. It's a small l number of people that we need to buy from us and that's okay.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, brilliant. And so that's become a strategy. You mentioned that you use LinkedIn more than other channels. Are you using other channels?
Matt Crabtree:
I mean, we have a Facebook company page. We have a Twitter handle. And anything that we put on LinkedIn, we put on those platforms.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Matt Crabtree:
So we use those platforms to distribute and federate the message, but we don't use those platforms in and of themselves, if that makes sense. And that's simply because we're a management consulting firm. It's a relatively finite community of customers that might consider our services. It's all B2B, there is no B2C element, and it's the sort of upper end of B2B. Therefore, LinkedIn just feels instinctively like the right place. We rather like the publishing platform that LinkedIn has, so we find that rather helpful for developing material because, of course, you can produce drafts and you can use it as the place that you're testing your material out in. So we find that slightly convenient. I look at LinkedIn salesperson [inaudible 00:10:06]. It is quite convenient for having that repository and that place to develop the material.
Matt Crabtree:
It's not that we object to the use of the other platforms, it's just that they feel, and we probably need to get education from an expert like you, they feel a bit more B2Cish, and we're and we're obviously very much not a B2C company.
Michelle Carvill:
Okay, brilliant. And so yeah, we'll need to talk about that, Matt, [inaudible 00:10:33] things. Got a few books you could read.
Matt Crabtree:
Well, I've read them already. Of course I have.
Michelle Carvill:
Of course you have. So, from a leadership perspective, because, of course, there's been there's been a lot of, particularly coming out or in this pandemic, moving through this pandemic, should we say, there's been a lot of discussion, particularly on LinkedIn and Twitter, around leaders being visible, and the need for leaders to be visible at this time for their audiences, whether that's their own teams, whether that's their clients. What's your view on where social media technologies fit as resources for leaders?
Matt Crabtree:
Yeah, I mean, [inaudible 00:11:18] I've been working with leaders for nearly two decades, and then had spent some time being one in corporate life before that. I'm not sure visibility and social media necessarily equate to one another. Visibility for leaders has always been and will always be important. It just so happens that in the last couple of decades, we've acquired this handy little extra tool, which is social media. And if anybody's asking, as a leader, “Should I be active on social media?” Then I don't know. I think that must be one of the very early chapters in one of your very early books. I mean, hopefully we're all somewhat past that point of understanding that, whether you like it or not, it is here to stay, and it is a critical part of the armory.
Matt Crabtree:
However, I do see some leaders thinking, “Well, I've put stuff out on social media, therefore I'm done. Now I can sort of go back to my mahogany office and put my feet up on the desk.” I'm not sure there's any leaders that do that anymore, but you know... I mean. And, therefore, I do think it's often assumed to be the only part of the solution, and it certainly isn't. There are leaders who are somewhat more quiet on social media, or have their messages more carefully crafted on social media. And one can completely understand why that is.
Matt Crabtree:
I was watching a very interesting webinar just last night, actually, coincidentally, my daughter is at university, she's an English graduate and we were watching a webinar from The Guardian by a very senior journalist there talking about journalism in the social media age, and talking about how different it was from when he started, and talking about what he called tweet trips, which is go to a country, put out a tweet, say you're looking for information for a story and then go around. And he told a fascinating story about Greece and the economic crisis in Greece and how he produced a story. The point being, social media has become both wonderful and very, very revealing, very, very transparent. And, therefore, we work with quite a lot of quite senior CEOs, some quite well known, and the care I have to take over what is said and how it is perceived is considerable. And so it becomes as much of a liability as it is an asset. But it's not a channel that anybody can afford to ignore, in any walk of life. It's simply unavoidable. But the care and the expertise that somebody like you and your organization offers is increasingly important because the missteps are legion, are they not?
Michelle Carvill:
[crosstalk 00:14:01].
Matt Crabtree:
The things that people have done and said, and when you have one of the allegedly most powerful leaders on the earth tweeting every 20 seconds all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff, then, yeah, maybe he needs to be a client. Although I'm not sure you'd accept him.
Michelle Carvill:
I think you know the answer to that. And so how about you, then, showing up, because it is about showing up for your audiences in that nurturing way. And I think that's a very valid point about transparency and the care and the thought that goes behind how you're going to show up online. That's the critical piece, as you say, for anybody. So what about this challenge that some people find, particularly from a leadership perspective, and it's a question I often get, this balancing personal and business? For some people, and on this podcast, some people have said, “Well, for me, it's what I do.” How is that for you, Matt? Is it what you do? Or is there that line of you're cautious and careful about that personal business perspective?
Matt Crabtree:
So, yeah. I mean, listen, I'm 51 and therefore I'm naturally cautious with social media. I'm not saying all 51 year olds are. But often older generation people take a bit more care, whereas I've got an 18 and a 20 year old daughter. My 18 year old particularly will Instagram for pretty much everything.
Matt Crabtree:
And by the way, some of what she Instagrams, it's beautiful pictures. When you look at her stories and the curation... We've just been in Norfolk for a week and she got a little curation of our experience in Norfolk, and it's brilliant. And it's not... What are we revealing? And then we went the beach and we had some nice food. I mean, so what? And it's beautifully taken and she's got a bunch of friends who enjoy it, and they share each other's experiences.
Matt Crabtree:
So what's the big deal, right? I, as an individual, I choose to share relatively little of my personal life, for no other reason than I'm not sure I've massively got time. I don't object to the idea. I use Facebook, I'm probably more of a voyeur than a participator. I try to steer clear of the more hysterical stuff. That's not that I don't feel passionately about lots of issues in the world, I do, but I do think that things are often taken wildly out of proportion, out of perspective, and people in the heat of the moment put all sorts of dreadful things out in the world. And I do think that that's an issue with that sort of platform. But it's not going to go away. And as I watched my girls managing it, I think they use it beautifully. They use it responsibly. They engage really positively. They long ago understood the perils of putting images out there that will follow you for the rest of the rest of your life. I think schools do a very good job these days of managing that understanding.
Matt Crabtree:
And so long winded answer to a simple question. I'm cautious, but I'm not terrified. And some of it is probably just slight digital laziness, in the sense that at work I spend a huge amount of time on LinkedIn, and it's a go to place. And I don't mind turning it off periodically. But I don't object to it.
Michelle Carvill:
No. And do you find that you're learning things that you may not ordinarily have been able to access through social media?
Matt Crabtree:
Oh my god.
Michelle Carvill:
But do you find it as a learning platform?
Matt Crabtree:
Oh, unbelievable, absolutely unbelievable. I'm running a project for a client just tomorrow where we're talking about... We do lots of things for growth and for leadership and change in our... principal topics that we work on in our organization. And one particular client, they're selling into particularly difficult market, and we have run a webinar program to run with their teams. And we've developed the webinar program, we developed it two or three weeks ago, which pre pandemic, that was relatively last minute. Now you prepare things two or three weeks ago, you have to then keep relooking to see, is this current? What's the situational change in a particular country, a particular economy, or particular industry? And I don't know where I would get that if it wasn't for social media, if it wasn't, particularly, for my LinkedIn feed. Now, that's a load of nonsense on my LinkedIn feed as well, which makes me roll my eyes back in my head, but I very rarely look at it and don't get something and think, “That's really interesting.”
Matt Crabtree:
Now, I'm a lifelong learner, I'm obsessive learner. I got walls full of books, and I'll go and watch speeches or training courses on anything, right? And so I think if you're curious, if you're interested in the world, social media is like this enormous gift. Do you have to wade through a bit? Well, yeah, but you know what, I had some terrible teachers at school 40 years ago. So, I mean, it's no, it's no different. I remember looking in the Encyclopedia Britannica for my homework and never finding the answer to the thing I was looking for. I do remember reading lots of stuff that was very interesting, had nothing to do with a subject I was trying to work my way through. So I don't think it's any different. Arguably, it's a massive amount better, massive amount. The guy from The Guardian was saying... I can't remember what he said. Certainly more than 50% of the visits to The Guardian website come through social media platforms.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:19:58].
Matt Crabtree:
An article [crosstalk 00:19:58] shared, they leap into it. So they don't go to the homepage, and very few people actually go to the homepage, they come in through an article. Makes sense.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely. And it's been interesting, I've been looking at a lot of the research around our behavior at the moment and social media has got more eyeballs on it than ever before. I mean, it was busy before, but it's interest, isn't it, that we turn to social media now more and more for news and updates, and less around entertainment. I mean, TikTok I think is still very much an entertainment channel, I don't think we're going there for news just yet. But it's interesting how we now are consuming and those curious minds are going and able to source the news that we want to see and find those things out.
Matt Crabtree:
I think that's right. And the beauty with your network... This is why, I'm as sure as you do, we spend a lot of time talking to people about honoring their network, about curating their network, because the better your network management, whether that's LinkedIn or Facebook or whatever you're on, the better the curation of material that will come to you. And so when you start to really think about, “Well, that's somebody I'd like to be connected with,” or, “That's a company I'd like to follow,” or “That's an influencer I'd like to follow,” suddenly the information starts to be crafted. And this is the positive side of that slightly nasty Cambridge Analytica stuff. The more positive side of it is, if your interests are benign, that you'll start to get information that helps you to do what you want to do to help the world. I want to help organizations to change, grow, and lead. So, guess what? Most of the information I get helps me to think about how to help organizations to change, grow, and lead. And I'm okay with that.
Matt Crabtree:
Now, I also get if I go and look at a pair of trainers from, a, another famous emporium for trainers, I will start to see those very often too. And that it is what it is, right. Lots of people get very angry about that and I understand that, but I don't think it's particularly evil, frankly.
Michelle Carvill:
No. This [crosstalk 00:22:13] balance, isn't there? There's a balance. So, given the work that you do, and the change and the transition, have you seen, particularly with the type of work that you're doing, more leaders, their appetite shifting towards social media? I mean, you said now you think most people are beyond understanding that these are important channels. There is still a little bit of skepticism there in certain areas.
Matt Crabtree:
Yeah.
Michelle Carvill:
But what's your view, or your take, or what have seen over the years, that transition through-
Matt Crabtree:
Yeah. I mean, I'm being slightly glib, because I, like you, encounter people on a reasonably regular basis, who, the minute I start talking about... particularly I will talk about LinkedIn, I can see their eyes rolling in the back of their heads and them switching off. And it's much less than it was, but I do think the shift has been substantial. And I think, above all else, people have seen, particular in business, people have seen that this helps me with talent attraction, talent retention, talent development. It helps me with my own awareness. It helps me monitor competitors. It helps me stay close to what's going on. So I do think the point of view is changing.
Matt Crabtree:
And, for those that don't get it by now, I'm not sure they're ever going to get it. And I suspect some of them are just thinking, “Well, soon enough I won't have to be part of all this, and I'll be drawing the pension and it will be okay.” So I think there are some people who just think, “Well, I can just live it out.” And, of course, their argument is always, “Well, let me show you my LinkedIn feed then. And, look, here's some idiot who's telling us about his new car, and here's somebody trying to sell me something. Look, it's terrible.” To which I normally then get out a newspaper and go, “Well, show me all the bits of the newspaper you don't like as well. That didn't stop you buying it or picking it up if you just picked it up at the station. You've still used it, but you've got some sort of special objection to this because it's digital. I don't really get that. What did you expect?” But it's here to stay and it has made the most tremendously positive difference. Is it perfect? No, but I don't know a channel that is. I've been to plenty of boring conferences where's there's no material. So it's an inexact science like all communication channels, but, my goodness, has it federated and democratized knowledge.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Matt Crabtree:
That's a wonderful thing.
Michelle Carvill:
And so, as we move towards the close of our discussion, not quite yet but towards it, what would you say that your... what's been your biggest learning around utilizing digital technologies? If somebody was saying to you, “No, I don't want to get involved. I don't want to get involved.” I mean, for all of those aspects that you just said about the knowledge and the connectivity that it enables, what, for you, has been your biggest learning over the years around digital, particularly social media?
Matt Crabtree:
Can I have two?
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Matt Crabtree:
So the first would be footprint. So whatever it is, 20 minutes or so ago I said, “I don't want to connect with anyone and everyone.” Which I don't, but I do want to connect with everybody that I meet. So you and I met a few months ago. I don't know if whether you were the first to send me an invitation or I sent you one, but it doesn't really matter, because it all happened-
Michelle Carvill:
We connected.
Matt Crabtree:
... on the same day. Because it's like muscle memory to you and I. We just wouldn't imagine not doing that. And so I think creating a big enough footprint is important. We often say to people in business, “You ought to have, this is LinkedIn, you ought to have a thousand connections for every 10 years in business.” So a thousand connections for every 10 years in business. A rough proxy. You got less than a thousand connections for every 10 years in business. I think there's people you've worked with and met who, for some reason, you've decided not to connect to because you think that, “Well, I didn't really like them, or they didn't like me, or they weren't clever enough, or pretty enough or... ” I don't know, some spurious reason of not connected to them. Which I personally think is daft, right. If you know somebody, be connected so that you have the biggest digital footprint of people who know you to some extent, even if it's only to a limited extent.
Matt Crabtree:
Secondly, substance. Substance in what you share and what you communicate. I see a lot of people commenting on things that other people have shared, kind of, “Thanks for sharing.” Great comment. Really? Just what a waste of time. Please, if you going to say something, then say something, then add some value and give me some insight and give me some substance. And I do think it's a thing we all have to have in mind, which is how can I add to this, rather than how can i just go, “Hello. I'm here.” Because that's really a bit empty.
Matt Crabtree:
And so we worry about that a lot. And I'm very sure, by the way, anyone who's listening, I'm very sure you're going to look at my profile and you'll go, “Well, there's not much substance in that.” And you'll be right. Substance is dial, it's not a switch.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. I agree.
Matt Crabtree:
[crosstalk 00:27:58].
Michelle Carvill:
And I think it's keeping in mind, with that substance, this is a conversation. And how would you respond to that conversation, “Oh great.” If you think about it that way... “Congratulations.” Is that it? You know you could say anything else.
Matt Crabtree:
“Happy birthday.” That's the favorite, isn't it?
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Matt Crabtree:
“Happy birthday.” And all you have to do is press a button and it's there. I mean, if anybody's ever sent me a happy birthday message, thank you so much for sending it, but the people who say, “Happy birthday.” And, “How you doing?” Or, “How's Marina?” Or whatever, who ask something else, that I honor, and it's something I try to remember myself. But you're... It's so right. I'd never thought of it that way. You wouldn't do it in a conversation, would you? “Congratulations. Bye.”
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. “So that's it. That's all I'm saying. That's all I got to say.” I'm sure some people would, but it's not going to develop that conversation. It's not going to open it up or move things on, so-
Matt Crabtree:
That's very good, that's very good.
Michelle Carvill:
... it's interesting. So what else do I want to speak to you about? So we talked about those learnings, and I think that's great. What would you say to those other two things? Footprint, I really like that. And I what I like about that, Matt, is it's not, because as you say, we've all be there, there's the spam that comes up on... I mean, now can spot them. I saw somebody the other day... My radar for this now is so hot, because it seems to have got worse, and it's so obvious sometimes. So that footprint of people that actually you genuinely have met and there is that relationship I think is great.
Matt Crabtree:
Yeah. I mean, Michelle, have got to stop sending these stupid invites.
Michelle Carvill:
I know.
Matt Crabtree:
They'll go... I mean, the people who are lead generators for coaches and consultants, it's in their title, right, and if any of them are listening, thank you ever so much for the work you're doing, but would you just maybe even go and visit my website first? I mean, if you really, really want to do business with me, say something to me about me.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Matt Crabtree:
Persuasion is personal, right. So, if you want to persuade me, talk to me about me. And then you will light up parts of brain, we even know through neuroscience now, if you talk to me about me my self-reflective part of my brain lights up and I'm much more likely to act. But you don't get that? “Do you want some leads for your consulting business?” “No thanks. Goodbye.”
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Matt Crabtree:
Just, really?
Michelle Carvill:
Oh, I get asked all the time. I think, “Goodness, that was a bit rude. A bit harsh.” And they'll say, “Can we give you some social media training? Would you like us to teach you about how to use certain channel?” That hurts a bit. Let's hope they haven't looked at my website.
Matt Crabtree:
Quite, quite. Don't worry, they haven't. They never do. They never do.
Michelle Carvill:
So, I like to round up the podcast with a little bit about learning about you, and some three very quickfire questions, that are quite enormous questions, but it's just top of the head thinking that just gives us that little bit beyond the social CEO and the social tech that we've been talking about. A little bit more about you. So, if you could change one thing in the world, Matt, what would it be?
Matt Crabtree:
Oh, that's easy. More empathy. More empathy. If we have discovered one thing during that last three, four months, whatever it's been, feels like forever, it is that time to listen and truly understand, to put your own self interests aside just momentarily and empathize with others. And whether that's in a negotiation for a massive business deal, or a conversation with your teenage daughter, it doesn't matter. Empathy is a hugely professional and personal skill. And I think it's important enough for us to teach it in school. I think it's such a massive thing. And, when we get it right, so many of the things that we've seen in the world, and let's face it, there have been two massive events in the world in the last four to six months, a lot of those begin to be addressed by an ability to understand each other better.
Matt Crabtree:
But it's fascinating, isn't it, how quickly things start to unravel in that regard, how the world now wants to find somebody to blame for coronavirus, to find governments to criticize for their reaction to the way that they've operated it, so we default as human beings into that lack of understanding very quickly. But I think we might have seen a two steps forward and maybe one step back. But I think maybe two steps forward. So empathy will always be my choice.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. Wonderful. And, like you say, if sustained empathy, if we can create it as a habit and not jump back to that blame culture and remain in empathy, that would be so... Well, it would change everything forever, wouldn't it? But-
Matt Crabtree:
Really would.
Michelle Carvill:
... there has been change, and that's felt really good. I think it feels good, doesn't it, empathy when we can practice that. So lovely, wonderful, I love that. What about... I mean you are surrounded by books and I know you are an avid reader, like myself. So which book have you read recently that has inspired you?
Matt Crabtree:
Can I have two again?
Michelle Carvill:
Yes. Is this a habit?
Matt Crabtree:
So the most recent book that I've read that's inspired me is Why I'm No Longer Talking To White People About Race. Inspiration is definitely a word, there are many other words, as a privileged white person, that I could use to describe how it has made me feel. I've been reading, as I know many of us have, voraciously on the subject. Something I thought I understood and have come to realize I don't even begin to understand it.
Michelle Carvill:
Okay.
Matt Crabtree:
And so I found that to be incredibly important. In fact, in my organization we now have a book club on that subject, on the subject of racial diversity. We have another session on Thursday morning and the purpose of those sessions is bring a book that we've read over the previous three weeks and discuss it amongst us and to see what our part, as an organization, might be in resolving that heinous discrimination that still occurs. We haven't found our platform yet, but we continue to listen and learn and look for it.
Matt Crabtree:
The other one is How To Win Friends And Influence People. Best book ever written. I could remove every book on my shelf and replace it with How To Win Friends And Influence People. If Dale Carnegie was still around, he would be the number one person on social media, I have no doubt-
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely.
Matt Crabtree:
... about it. He would think it was the best thing that ever had been invented. So everyone should read it. It should be compulsory reading for every human being, in my opinion.
Michelle Carvill:
Fantastic. Do you know what, you've inspired me to get that out again and give it another read, because it is such a good... It's a revisitor as well, isn't it?
Matt Crabtree:
It is, it is.
Michelle Carvill:
Only appropriate.
Matt Crabtree:
And so many books are based on it. It's the mother and father of every other self-development and interpersonal [crosstalk 00:35:33].
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. I agree with that. And, last but certainly not least, Matt, what's the best piece of advice you've been given to date? Can you have two? Yes you can, if you need it.
Matt Crabtree:
I don't think I do really. And it's slightly inspired by How To Win Friend and also a little bit 7 Habits. The best thing I ever got taught, and I was lucky to get taught it early in my career because this definitely doesn't come naturally, as anybody in friendship group or family tell you, which is to be more interested than interesting. And I'd learnt about that early. I was lucky in an early job that I had they were very self-development orientated, and I had that concept communicated to me in a lot of different ways. And the idea of doing what you've done beautifully in the last 40 minutes, which is being interested in the ramblings of this idiot-
Michelle Carvill:
Not at all.
Matt Crabtree:
... and made me feel important. And that ability to honor other people's opinions, to open your ears, not just to be falsely interested to manipulate them into liking, but actually really, seriously listen to them. And I, I've mentioned it a couple of times, I have an 18 year old and a 20 year old daughter and I get told a lot of stuff at the moment. A lot of home education is going on, bit of homeschooling going on at our place, but I'm the student. And I am learning enormous amounts, but I have to put aside my authority, my sense of knowing things, and my belief that somehow a father should know more than his children, because I definitely don't on masses of subject. And I have my point of view challenged frequently, and it's incredibly healthy.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Matt Crabtree:
But you have to remind your ego of that. I have to remind my ego. If anybody's sitting listening to this who knows me to any degree, they'll know I kind of like the sound of my own voice, I'm illustrating it pretty well now. And it's a lesson I teach myself daily if not hourly.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. Great. I love, love, love that, Matt. So listen, it's been really wonderful to talk to you. It's certainly not been ramblings. I've thoroughly enjoyed picking your brains and finding out your views, thoughts. The insights that you've shared about how you were using social and the technologies, and how you've seen that shift, and the impact that has for your business, and how you balance all of that, and what that means for you and the value that uou get. I mean, there's just so much in there. And just I love that about the footprint and substance. That is so... Every time I see one of those comments I'm just going be giggling, as to, “There's another one.” We all see them.
Michelle Carvill:
So thank you so much. How can people find out more about what you're doing, Matt? Where can they find your organization, your web links? How can they connect with you? I mean, you don't just connect with anybody, but if people have met and they want to find out more about the work, don't just connect and spam Matt, but how can they find out about you?
Matt Crabtree:
Michelle, that's kind. Thank you. So, positivemomentum.com is our consulting company. Around 40 consultants around the world doing amazing work with lots of great organizations. So positivemomentum.com. My personal website is mattcrabtree.co.uk. So delighted for people to visit. I'm on LinkedIn, obviously, and delighted to hear from people, to engage with people. You want to have a conversation with me that leads to a connection, I'd be absolutely delighted. Those are principle poisons, and be delighted to be connected with people. And thank you to for the opportunity. Delightful to talk to you, Michelle. You do fantastic work with organizations on this really important, so bravo to you. More power to your elbow. And thanks for the chance today.
Michelle Carvill:
That's wonderful. Thank you so much being on the podcast.
Michelle Carvill:
You've been listening to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast. Thank you to my guest, and indeed thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy, and indeed subscribe to TuneIn for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms, and all episodes are also on our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts. You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site too, so be sure to check those out. So for now, from me, Michelle Carvill, your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in, and goodbye.
Michelle Carvill:
Oh, P.S., if you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies, and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me, michelle@carvillcreative.co.uk.