Get Social - The Connected Leader Podcast - Tim Hughes, Co-Founder and CEO Digital Leadership Associates

Michelle Carvill:
Hello, and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader podcast where I, Michelle Carvill, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how, in this hyper connected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in, and connect, and communicate. You can find all episodes of the podcast, together with show notes, via our website carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts.
Michelle Carvill:
In this episode of the Get Social Connected Leader podcast, I'm delighted to interview Tim Hughes. Tim is universally recognized as the world leading pioneer of social selling, and he's currently ranked number one by Analytica as the most influential social selling person in the world. He's also co-founder and CEO of Digital Leadership Associates, and co-author of the bestselling books Social Selling: Techniques to Influence Buyers and Changemakers, and Smarketing: How To Achieve Competitive Advantage through Blended Sales and Marketing, both published by Kogan Page.
Michelle Carvill:
Hi Tim, wonderful to have you on the Get Social Connected Leader podcast. We have been talking online for a while. Why don't you just give a little bit of background, Tim, as to your experience, how you came to social media, how you are a truly connected leader?
Tim Hughes:
Yeah, thank you Michelle. It's great to be here, really excited, and have a chat.
Tim Hughes:
I've been on, doing social for about 10 years. I was actually being told by a manager at a previous company that we needed to be on social, and I put it off for about six months, and then joined up, and then started to enjoy it. Fast forward a bit, we're back in 2015, the company that I was working for, a big US software company, we suddenly found that we were not relevant anymore. We were an on-premise company, and all of our competition had basically sneaked up on us, and they were all cloud companies. The way of selling, we were used to 18 month sales cycles, where there would be some sort of RFP, and if you made a mistake it didn't really matter, because you had 18 months in which to correct it, still all about relationships.
Tim Hughes:
Then, we took on a sales guy from one of our competition, and he said they closed on the first meeting. At that point, I realized that all of my world was basically crumbling, and I had to go to the VP, and I got him to repeat it. It was like, we need to do something, and do it now. We went through a complete transformation of the sales team. We tried to get them to throw away PowerPoints, and use whiteboards, we taught them about storytelling. We taught them a very rudimentary way of building relationships with people on social, prospecting on social. I was very lucky that the VP of sales believed in leading from the front, so when we announced the whiteboard, it was him that did the whiteboard at the front, in front of the 60 salespeople, it was him that went on social.
Michelle Carvill:
Great.
Tim Hughes:
While that required an awful lot of coaching to get him to do all of those things, he did it, and the people followed. We ended up rolling out that social selling program across the whole of Europe, where the Europeans would allow us to do it.
Tim Hughes:
It's amazing how people now talk about cloud, or cloud computing, as if it was normal, but back in 2015, we just saw the whole world ... the rug was completely pulled from under us.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. I suppose it's very timely now, isn't it, when we're amidst this pandemic, and a lot of people, I think, are going to be feeling, who aren't as digitally literate, and digitally connected as maybe they should be, are going to feel a little bit like their rugs have been pulled from under them.
Tim Hughes:
Yeah, there's an old safety film that was made by the UK government about spotting someone drowning. It was done with an English sense of humor, so there was a certain amount of tongue in cheek, where these people were watching this person drowning and they were saying, "Oh look, that person's waving their arms in the air." And, "Oh look, they're shouting at me." Of course, the person was actually shouting help. "Oh, let's wave back," they said. What I'm seeing at the moment is an awful lot of people realizing they now need to do something, and they don't know what to do. So people are posting on LinkedIn, and hoping that'll happen.
Tim Hughes:
Now, it's been interesting for us because what we've found is actually some of our pipeline is accelerated, so there's a number of deals that we've been working on where there was always another priority, they had difficulty justifying the business case. Then, they rang us up on Wednesday and said, "We need you here on Friday." Of course, we're not available on Friday. That's a management consultancy company.
Tim Hughes:
If you think about management consultancy, it's always been about face to face.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
It's always been about golf umbrellas, and the relationships. Now, they can't go to the golf course and build those relationships. The same with, one of the companies is a SaaS company. Again, they're in a situation with all of my connections were to do with face to face meetings, taking people to the pub, or taking people for a beer or whatever, and they can't do that. How are they going to build relationships, and prospect, find additional people to talk to, in the current climate? The only what that you're going to do that is through digital.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, absolutely.
Tim Hughes:
Well, social selling.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. I want to talk about social selling in a moment, because some people hear the term, and some people aren't clear. Well, what does that mean? Does it mean I have to put a load of ads out on social media? What are they talking about?
Michelle Carvill:
I know when I wrote Myths with Ian, one of the chapters that I wrote was about one of the myths we were busting, was around online and offline networking, and was there a difference between online and offline networking, and were the relationships that manifested ... Because as you were saying, all of those relationships from the consultancy, from a sales perspective, it's the schmoozing, it's the let's get out onto the golf course, let's take them to the rugby, take them to restaurants, whatever, and it's about that face to face connection.
Michelle Carvill:
What was interesting, when I did some research around online versus offline, and it's difficult to find studies, actually, where people have measured the success of an online relationship versus an offline relationship. But, where they had done that was in marriage, and in dating.
Tim Hughes:
Okay.
Michelle Carvill:
There's a very big piece of research that had been done over a 15 year period, by MIT. The conclusion was that, actually, those couples that had met online were actually more successful, and had stayed together, than those marriages that had just met and had come together.
Michelle Carvill:
The beautiful thing about online networking is the selection process, isn't it? You can see what's going on, you can see who it is that you need to be connected with. You can see how and what they're doing, so that you can actually connect with those that are like minded. But also, even if they're not like minded but you still need to be doing business with them, you can see their interests, you can see their tone of voice, you can see what they're talking about, and you can learn what's the best way to approach this.
Tim Hughes:
There are differences, very much so. The thing about online is you can do it at scale.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes!
Tim Hughes:
If you're doing it face to face and you go into a room of 200 people, how many of those 200 people can you actually really talk to? And, how do you know, of those 200 people, are the ones who are going to be of use to you?
Michelle Carvill:
Exactly.
Tim Hughes:
But, you don't. So you walk up to somebody and then go, "Oh, I've just spent 10 minutes with somebody that does exactly what I do."
Tim Hughes:
The thing about being online is that it enables you to do it, and you enables you to do it at scale. The thing is, it's not just about posting.
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Tim Hughes:
It's about having conversations. I've won business because I've made a comment on something on social, and someone said ... I mean, I just got off a phone call from somebody, and the reason why they're talking to me is because I made a comment on something and one of their friends says, "You need to talk to that person."
Tim Hughes:
There are differences that are key, and I think the thing about social is that you are able to do things far more efficiently. So, a great example that all salespeople have, and all companies have is that we have to run around at the top of the funnel, talking to people that will never buy from us.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
They won't buy from us because they either don't like us, they don't have the budget, there's lots of reasons. But, the problem is ... We call it qualification. But actually, it's a load of time spent wasting time. We only have 200 days a year, 220 days a year where we can actually make our number, so we need to find a way of actually sorting out wheat from the chaff.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
On social, I can write my LinkedIn profile in a way that it will be divisive.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
It's divisive on purpose, and I can create content which is divisive on purpose. The reason for that is because if you don't like it, you're never going to buy from me. Therefore, I'm able to weed out the people that are never going to buy. I'm also, in addition, because we all know we all have mobile phones, we know that we can sit down and we can buy something.
Tim Hughes:
I know it's pre-COVID-19, but have a BMW dealer as a client. In November, they got 28 pieces of inbound, that's people coming to them and saying, "We'd like to buy a BMW." They converted 14 of those, so what's 14 times $50,000? Dollars or pounds, it doesn't matter. They made $700,000, or pounds, for zero marketing budget. It's the same month that Jaguar went to the marketplace and said, "We're halting production because we're not selling." That shows one person's winning, and one person's clearly losing.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
But, what they're doing, what you're able to do is write in a particular way to get people to come to you, and realize that you're the ...
Michelle Carvill:
Solution.
Tim Hughes:
Solution to their problem, yeah?
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Tim Hughes:
I've always used BANT, which is budget, authority, need, and timescale. When they do come to you, they will have looked at the competition so they know they have the budget, they know they have a need. They may not have the authority, but they will take it to the person that has the authority. And, they know the timescale. So, you're getting fully BANT leads, free of change. Why wouldn't you do that?
Michelle Carvill:
Powerful.
Tim Hughes:
I mean, that's not about just posting, you won't get that by just posting. You have to have a methodology, a very clear process of you do this, you do this, you do this, and you get that result.
Tim Hughes:
The thing is that there's so many people out there drowning, throwing their arms around, screaming for help and you can see that they don't know what to do.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
What that means is that they're just throwing stuff out, and posting stuff, and hoping something will happen. We know, it was probably the first thing we were ever told in business, was that hope isn't a strategy.
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Tim Hughes:
I know that people will say, "I'm going to try and do this myself." You won't. You need to get help to do it. But once you do, you will get results, and it will easily pay for itself.
Michelle Carvill:
Exactly, exactly. Talk us through social selling, this concept, and as you say, this concept of being visible. It's not about posting, I refer to that as desperately filling the feeds. It's just filling the feeds, for what purpose? There isn't that purpose, there isn't a structure, there isn't an angle, there isn't a strategy. Stop doing it, it isn't about filling the feeds and just putting anything out there.
Tim Hughes:
The mistake that people make about content is that they think content is dissimilar to the source of top of the funnel marketing.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
Which is, if we throw enough content at the wall, some of it will stick. Content is, in effect, can be that, or you can be using content to influence, and you can be using content to create action.
Tim Hughes:
We've all written emails where, "Michelle, I need you to do this next Thursday." And you come back to me and say, "Well, I'm full, I'm sorry." Then, you basically have to write, because I need you to do something, and we've all done that in business. It's action based.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
We can be using content as one to multiple people, we can be using content as one to many, as in maybe a business or an industry.
Tim Hughes:
So in the past, you would have rung somebody up and said, "So, are you going to buy this or not?" Now, you can actually use content as a way of actually, I write blogs for a person. They don't know that, because you may read that blog, but it will be because I'm trying to get a person to do something. You can content as a way of closing deals just as much as you can to basically start deals off.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely.
Tim Hughes:
Sorry Michelle, I jumped in.
Michelle Carvill:
No, it's all about that content exactly, down the funnel isn't it? From lead, from awareness, through to consideration, through down to conversion. It can work at all those different levels. Some content is designed for that, some content is then drawing them down, and of course you'll have this flow.
Michelle Carvill:
Talk to us a little bit about the process of social selling then, because we understand the concept. The concept of social selling is around the fact that it isn't about the direct do this, buy this, in the old fashioned, this is about building relationships continuously, isn't it? And about always drip, drip, drip, keeping people on the ball, listening to them, understanding them. Understanding triggers, where there's an opportunity that you can jump in from that listening, and then engaging, networking in that way. I may not be articulating that as smoothly as you will. Just give us that overview, and the key steps around social selling, the critical things for people.
Tim Hughes:
We need to remember that our customers and prospects are online. There's nothing we can do to stop that.
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Tim Hughes:
There's the Gardner research that shows that people are 57% of the way through the buying process before they contact a salesperson.
Tim Hughes:
Now, it doesn't matter whether you believe that or not, the fact of the matter is we all use our mobiles, and we use it to buy stuff.
Michelle Carvill:
100%.
Tim Hughes:
We will be doing that, whether we're spending $1 million or we're buying a BMW, we still do it, and we will still research things.
Tim Hughes:
There's three things you need to start with social selling. The first thing you need is your shop window, which is your profile, so you need to have a profile on social. If it's B2B, it would be something like LinkedIn, it could be Facebook, it could be Instagram. This is not you saying, "Hey, I'm the best salesperson in the world, and once I get my teeth into you, I'm never going to let go." This is about you being empathetic with a buyer, you need to show that you understand their business issues.
Tim Hughes:
Now, if you think work and business, whenever you talk to a client, the first thing you do in the first five or 10 minutes is you express your expertise about why you should be sitting there in front of the clients. You know, "I've been in this business for 20 years, we've done work with waste management people, and I've been in waste management for 20 years. I know a particular type of getting rid waste for syringes and stuff." And they immediately justify that to you.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
It's like, well get it on your profile. Because if I'm searching, as a buyer, and looking for someone that's going to help me, I'm looking for someone whose going to be an expert. I'm looking for someone that's going to help me go down that buying process.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
It's a bit like walking, in the days when we could walk down high streets, you look in the shop window, if there's nothing there that's of interest to you, you'll walk onto the next shop.
Tim Hughes:
Your LinkedIn profile is your profile, it's up 366 days a year, seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Everybody is looking at your profile, or could look at your profile. You need to have a good LinkedIn profile, what we would call buyer centric, so based around what a buyer wants.
Tim Hughes:
The next thing you'll want is a network. Most people have their network is ex-colleagues and recruitment consultants, which is interesting but not much use. What you need to do is take all of your contacts and put them online. So next to my desk here, I've got a big stack of business cards, and what you need to do is take all your business cards and connect to the people on LinkedIn. Connect to all the prospects, connect to all the people you'd love to sell to, connect to all your customers, connect to all the people that will influence those customers. Anybody that you can think of, you need to connect to them.
Tim Hughes:
The reason for that is the third thing, which is you need to have content. You can do two things. One is you can curate it, so you can find content. So for example, you listen to this podcast that Michelle has created and you think, that was really useful, I'm going to share that with the people in my network because I think it's really important. I think if they listen to that, they will learn something. That's where you can curate content, and share this podcast. Or, other content, I just used that as an example.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tim Hughes:
Obviously, we do want-
Michelle Carvill:
That's good, we do want you to share the podcast. Yes, please.
Tim Hughes:
Yeah. Or, you can create content yourself. One of the things that we do is we teach salespeople how to create simple content, 3-500 word blog. We had a guy, one sales guy, write a blog the other day, he had 30 likes on it. 30 likes, and that meant ...
Michelle Carvill:
On LinkedIn?
Tim Hughes:
On LinkedIn, yeah.
Michelle Carvill:
That's great.
Tim Hughes:
When you like something, ... I know you know this, but I'm going to explain. When you like something on LinkedIn, it goes through your network. So, the average person on LinkedIn has 500 connections, so if you take 30 and multiply by 500, that gives you some idea of the number of people that could have seen that piece of content. Now, not only will his network have seen it, but his network's network will have seen it as well.
Tim Hughes:
It's a very simple blog about the fact that he's actually spending more time with his family, he's not commuting into London, and it takes him 45 minutes, and he's actually spending that time at home. Everybody can understand it, and it wouldn't have taken him very long to actually write it. But, the fact of the matter is he's converted the 30 minutes, an hour that it took to write it to, if you think about the time that people actually read it. So, it takes three minutes, times the 30 likes, or whatever the number of people. That's an efficiency of time, where you're making that conversion.
Tim Hughes:
Another client of ours, he wrote one blog about working for his company, he got 40 applicants for jobs, and he saved half a million dollars in recruitment fees.
Michelle Carvill:
Recruitment fees, yeah.
Tim Hughes:
We're using content not just to sell, but we're using content as a way of getting what we want, or going where we want to go.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely.
Tim Hughes:
So the three things, which is about your profile, about network. The bigger your network, or the more people in the network, the more people, then, that will see your content, and will see your message. The better your network, the more likelihood that they will take the content.
Tim Hughes:
So Michelle has a very strong network, there's a lot of people that love Michelle, and they will take her videos and put them through her network. So David Taylor, for example, who is her co-author on, was it your first book?
Michelle Carvill:
Yes, [inaudible 00:22:34].
Tim Hughes:
David shares everything that Michelle does, so she can be guaranteed that will go through David's network. This is how you propagate your message, and your story through the networks, and this is the power of networks. It's not just about who you know, and who Michelle knows, but it's about who David knows, and then who Tim Hughes knows. This is how organizations propagate their message out. You cannot do that through advertising, cold calling, and sending spam emails.
Michelle Carvill:
No, no. The power of, if you've got a sales team of 50, 30, ... I've just done some work recently with a group of regional business directors, they all look after different territories, and they were not connected to each other. On LinkedIn, they were doing their own things but they were not actually connected. They weren't connected to the organization, so they weren't sharing the organization's content, pushing that out to their networks. Then, they weren't sharing content between each other.
Tim Hughes:
The first thing you need to do if you're watching this, is connect to everybody in your company.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
Because you need to be sharing each other's networks, because you've got a common purpose.
Michelle Carvill:
Exactly.
Tim Hughes:
To sell stuff. By the way, it doesn't matter, you don't just have to be in sales. It could be that it's actually that the janitor is connected to the CEO, because it's their brother-in-law.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
And you won't know unless you're connected to the janitor, that you could go to her and say, "How can we get a meeting with the CEO?" "Oh, that my brother-in-law, of course you can get a meeting with him. Why didn't you ask me before that?" Well, I didn't know.
Michelle Carvill:
When they actually, visually started, ... because that's the beauty of it, you can visually then see whose connected, and you can visually see all those [inaudible 00:24:31] that you just can see, you don't know who I'm connected to, and who is in my head, and how many people I've engaged with over the years. But, you can see a lot of that visually, through some of the networks. When people start to be able to visualize and see, I've had people come back to me and said, "Oh my goodness, I've been trying to speak to that person, to get to that person for a long time." It turns out that Johnny over there has this great relationship with that person.
Tim Hughes:
Yes.
Michelle Carvill:
It does manifest all of that as well.
Michelle Carvill:
What about, Tim, obviously you're right, you've got to have the strong profile, build out your network, get your message and your content right, and keep at it consistently, and be consistent. And, be ears and eyes open, at the same time, isn't it? You've got to be that fundamental aspect of listening to what's going on.
Tim Hughes:
Yeah. Some people in sales don't like the fact that we talk about helping people. But, if you've been stitched up by a salesperson, you will remember the person because you'll remember to not recommend them. But, if you're helping ... This podcast is about helping, I'm explaining to people how they can get started in social. Some people, hopefully, will walk away from that and go, "I feel motivated to do something. Tim has helped me." If you think that Tim has helped me, you're more likely to ring me up and say, "Tim, you helped me on this. Can you help me?" Or, "Can you help my brother-in-law, or whatever?"
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
There's some sort of macho thing about salespeople not helping, it's rubbish. I've been in sales for a few years, and one of the first things you learn is it's actually by helping people.
Tim Hughes:
When my customers, I always help them generate leads for them, because things move on. If you help somebody, it helps somebody and then it all works all around.
Michelle Carvill:
It's kind of business karma, isn't it?
Tim Hughes:
Yeah, karma, that's the word. I'm trying to remember the word, karma. It's like business karma, yeah.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, it is. It's great.
Michelle Carvill:
We've all been there, when you connect with somebody on LinkedIn. I mean, I have five, six connection messages, and there will be more. They happen all the time, don't they? You can tell, sometimes, where people ... I get that salespeople are trying to make sales, but sometimes it infuriates me if I get a message, I think they're either being extremely rude or they just haven't bothered to look at my profile. Where they'll say, "Do you need some help with your social media?"
Tim Hughes:
Yeah, I get them as well. Yeah.
Michelle Carvill:
"We're an agency ..." I mean, that kind of gives social selling, the concept of it, you can see why people would think, hold on a minute, I don't want to be doing that. That is spam, isn't it?
Tim Hughes:
It is, it's spam. It's not social selling. It's basically cold calling on a social network.
Tim Hughes:
There's two main differences. If you take legacy sales and marketing, so advertising, cold calling, sending out emails, it's all based on interruption, I will interrupt you. I've got to get a report out for my manager, I've got this big spreadsheet. The phone rings, and someone then broadcasts to me, and pitches to me, I don't need this right now. All of those things, advertising, cold calling, and email, are all based on interruption.
Tim Hughes:
What people do is that they go, "Ah well, that's what social selling. What I'll do is I'll take interruption and put it onto social," and it's not.
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Tim Hughes:
Cold calling on a social network ... Social selling is based on permission. When someone connects to you, you are giving them permission to have a conversation with you.
Tim Hughes:
So, first and foremost, if someone looks spammy, they will be spammy, I can assure you that, and don't connect to them. If someone comes and pitches to you, and you don't like it, then there's nothing wrong in blocking them. The more people that do this, the more people will stop doing it.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
So, if you come to me and pitch to me, you will get blocked.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
And, I actually report you to LinkedIn, and then I block you. I do that because I can.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
That's not the way that we work. What we do is we should be building a relationship.
Tim Hughes:
Now, there's nothing wrong in coming to me, and ... If you want to get a connection, the best thing to do is find two things which we have in common, because we do that. As soon as you get on the phone call with somebody, or you go to a networking meeting you go, "Where are you coming from?" Oh yeah, I went to university there, or my mom lives there. We all do that because it helps build a relationship and trust. But if someone comes and pitches to you, then that's over.
Tim Hughes:
For me to build a relationship with you, I have to be interested in you. I don't like using the dating analogy, but you don't go to a date and talk about yourself.
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Tim Hughes:
You generally don't get second dates if you do that.
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Tim Hughes:
What do you do? Where did you go on holiday? You may not listen to the answer, that doesn't matter. Well, what you should do, you need to be active listening, but the fact of the matter is that that's the way that we build relationships with people. All we're doing in social media, the key thing is social. What we're doing is we're taking social attributes that we all have, and then we're putting them, in effect, into a social network.
Michelle Carvill:
I suppose the more human we can be around that, Tim, the more authentic?
Tim Hughes:
Yeah. The words authentic, but that's about being human, that's about being ourselves.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Tim Hughes:
As I said earlier on, there's nothing wrong about being ourselves because what too many people do is try and be liked by everybody. We know we can't be liked by everybody.
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Tim Hughes:
There will always be people that don't like us. Actually, your podcast is about leadership, more than ever right now, we need our leaders to be themselves.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes!
Tim Hughes:
To be empathetic.
Tim Hughes:
I don't have children, but if I did have children and I'm working from home and they run in, that's what happens.
Michelle Carvill:
That's life.
Tim Hughes:
The dog comes in, or whatever it is, and we shouldn't try and put ... we are like everybody else. We all make mistakes, we all have things that we've done wrong, and we live with those, and that's what being human's about.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely.
Tim Hughes:
I think right now, more than anything else as a leader, people want to see that you are like them.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes, absolutely.
Tim Hughes:
The more that you can do that ... Great example is Richard Branson, whose done a fantastic PR job at being empathetic. Then, we found out that he's not paying any tax in the country for 14 years, and the whole thing falls down like a house of cards. So, don't be somebody that you're not, but if you've got children, tell people about it.
Tim Hughes:
There's a friend of mine who has a non-speaking, autistic child. I said, "You need to tell people about this on social." "Oh, I can't do that, I can't do that." I said, "It's you, it's you. You can't go to certain meetings because of the Hector, you can't do certain things because of Hector." "But, I can't tell them." So anyway, she basically wrote a blog about her relationship with Hector, and you're already putting your head to one side because you know, it's from the heart.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Tim Hughes:
She's got so many ... Someone said to her, "How did you get this meeting with this VP?" Well, he has an autistic child. "What do you talk about?" Autism, what do you think we talked about? We have these things, and actually people love that.
Tim Hughes:
I'm not telling you to boast that you have an autistic child.
Michelle Carvill:
No, but it's about making ...
Tim Hughes:
Yeah, what we're doing is we form connections with human, and we're using social as an ability to form connections. As a leader, you've got an ability to connect with more people than your ordinary people can do.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely.
Tim Hughes:
That's why it's so important, as a leader, that you use social as that ability to reach out, to not just your people, but your prospects, and your customers, and people that influence those people.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely. I mean, it's leadership. You talked about scale, it's leadership at scale, isn't it?
Tim Hughes:
Yes.
Michelle Carvill:
It's that opportunity to ... On the podcast, I've heard from other people, other guests, and they've talked about that. That they've heard things from team members, ideas, insights, things that they would just never ordinarily get the opportunity to ever listen to because their paths would never cross. Either because of geography, or hierarchy, they would never usually, ordinarily, be able to hear the voices of these other people. And yet, they're giving them great ideas, and great insights, and great feedback, and they can listen, and learn, and then connect through social technologies.
Tim Hughes:
The NHS is a great example, in COVID-19, where okay, they haven't empowered the people but the people have just done it themselves. Because I get salespeople coming to me all the time saying, "We're desperate for doing social selling." I say, "Well, what's your management think?" They say, "They can't even order a taxi through Uber." That's the digital divide that we have, which is that we have people understanding that unless they do something, they're not going to be relevant. The NHS is a great example where people empowered themselves to go out and talk, and say, "You need to do this, because otherwise, this is what's going to happen."
Tim Hughes:
In the UK, Brand USS, NHS, it used to be that the Armed Forces were the number one brand of, in effect, like we all help the heroes and stuff.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
But, no one remembers that anymore. The NHS, we go outside on Thursday, and we clap for the NHS, everybody does it. If you don't do it, people will drag you out of the house and force you.
Michelle Carvill:
Oh, yeah.
Tim Hughes:
That was a joke, but it's kind of like that. They've generated that brand by having people going online and talking in authentic voices, about the challenges that they have. People go, "I get that, and I'm with you."
Tim Hughes:
Companies can do that, not quite so easy because they'll try and put adverts out and ruin it, but the key thing is to get people to talking in authentic voice. As a leader, you have a voice, and your people have a voice as well, and this is the most powerful thing that there is in this world.
Tim Hughes:
I'm going to finish on that bit, that companies only have one unique selling point today, because all products are the same. The only unique selling point you have are your people. The only way that you're going to be relevant today is by empowering those people, and the leaders in your business, to talk authentically on social. You cannot buy the ad space, you cannot buy that with cold calling, and you cannot buy it by spamming people with emails.
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Tim Hughes:
So, throw away all your martech, it's a waste of money, and empower people to talk authentically on social.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. Well, I couldn't agree more. So Tim, before we wrap up, because I feel like you've given so many insights, you've given us, absolutely, the steps.
Tim Hughes:
Yeah, I'm a bit passionate about this.
Michelle Carvill:
You and me both, it's wonderful. That's what, really, has been so heartfelt about this podcast, but I didn't set out with that in mind. But, I want to breakthrough, the message is just be people, people are people, people are great, most of the time. So, use your people, optimize your people, give them the tools, give them the power, give them the trust.
Tim Hughes:
Yes.
Michelle Carvill:
It's trust ...
Tim Hughes:
It is. We had a lot of people that said, before COVID-19, "There's no way my people can work from home, they have to be in the office."
Michelle Carvill:
There you go.
Tim Hughes:
Now, those people may actually still be going to the office, but most people are working from home. Now, if you don't trust those people, you've hired the wrong people, or you have the wrong managers. Business is based on trust, so something has to give. In most cases, I think now, we recognize that ...
Tim Hughes:
At my previous company, five years ago we were told, because we were a technology company they said, "You can't travel, you need to use technology. We're a technology company, therefore you do it." Everybody complained, it made no impact on revenues. In fact, because no one traveled, we increased our margin by 15%. In the UK, that was, and we made $1 billion US. What's 15% of $1 billion? Not an insurmountable sum.
Michelle Carvill:
It's a lot of money, yeah.
Tim Hughes:
Yeah. That's the difference, we have to trust our people, and we have to trust our people on social.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely.
Tim Hughes:
There are risks, and I can go through a whole load of social selling ... Not social selling, but social media programs that have gone wrong. Waitrose is a famous one, where shop at Waitrose and people would put things like, "I shop at Waitrose because I don't like poor people," and stuff.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Tim Hughes:
Which, if you're an American, you probably don't understand the context for that, but trust me, that is very funny.
Tim Hughes:
The biggest risk that you have about is not being present. The biggest is that your clients, your customers, your influencers are on social, and you're not visible.
Michelle Carvill:
Exactly.
Tim Hughes:
If you're visible, you're not on the shortlists.
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Tim Hughes:
And, you'll never know. All that'll happen is that you'll have a bad quarter and you'll go, "It's COVID-19, that's why we're having a bad quarter."
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Tim Hughes:
Then, we have another bad quarter, so you fire the sales manager. And then, you'll have another bad quarter. Then, you may not have a company because the cash has run out.
Tim Hughes:
It's a reality today, that all of the things that we had before COVID-19 don't work.
Michelle Carvill:
No.
Tim Hughes:
We have to do something different, before the money runs out.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it drives influence, that visibility. That is where you're visible, your visibility drives influence. Social channels, there was a piece I mentioned in the book, it's a piece of research by PWC, last year I think it came out, social channels are the most influential channels for purchase decisions. That's where we go for ideas, it's where we're looking around. It may not be where we click because some of the channels aren't designed that way, but boy, are they influential in share of mind, and influencing our purchasing decisions.
Tim Hughes:
Yeah. I've just read the Neil Schaefer book on influencer marketing, and he's got a fact, quite towards the back of it, about lurkers.
Michelle Carvill:
[inaudible 00:41:02]
Tim Hughes:
Someone came up with this view, that 90% of the people on social are lurkers, which is that they consume content but they don't necessarily tweet, or post. I think there was a figure that he says, that actually, on Twitter, most Twitter users don't tweet.
Michelle Carvill:
No. I think it's about 56% of accounts don't tweet.
Tim Hughes:
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go. The reason for that is that people are using it to seek information.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely.
Tim Hughes:
I've had people come to me saying, "I've been following you for three years." The first time it happens, it's a bit creepy. But afterwards, you get used to it, which is, "I've read all your stuff." Then, I'll get on a call and they're repeating my words back to email.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
But, the fact of the matter is that 90% of the people are lurkers. So, quite often you'll get people saying, "Oh yeah, this is all very interesting, Tim, but I don't use social as a way of posting." Or, "I don't feel comfortable with that." That may be so, but there are people out there that you are influencing, who aren't necessarily posting.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
They can be influential just as much as the CFO of GlaxoSmithKline, or whatever big company it is that you want to try and get a hold of.
Michelle Carvill:
Usually. In fact, when I did some research with leaders, a lot of them were using social media, not to put messages out but to watch, and listen, and learn. If you want to get under their eyeballs, then you have to be visible, you have to be out there. And they are looking and learning, so that is a truism.
Michelle Carvill:
I suppose you've been using the channels for a long time. Just one piece of advice, what would you say to somebody whose starting out, and is worried about getting started on social? There's trepidation, "I'm not sure, I've got nothing to say. What if nobody comments, or likes, or does what they meant to do on social media?" What would your advice be?
Tim Hughes:
Well, the worst thing that can happen is nothing happens. You post something and nobody likes it, and whatever. You just need to get out, and get onto social.
Tim Hughes:
The first thing you need to do is be on there, and I would say, actually, to listen. Actually, see what people are doing, and see what people are saying. What they're doing and saying isn't necessarily best practice. Someone once gave me, in the days when we used to write letters to people, I said, "I'll just take so-and-so's letter." They said, "Don't ever take someone's letter, because you take all their mistakes. You need to write it yourself." So, you do need to find your way, but have a listen, and look, and see what your competitors are doing, see what your customers are doing. Just get out onto social, and start having conversations.
Tim Hughes:
I was talking to someone yesterday, who I'm trying to get them to join us as an associate, and he's tarted up his LinkedIn profile, and he's posted something. He's had 10 people come to him and say, "Hello Dave, I haven't seen you for ages. Go on, what are you doing right now?" So, from actually doing nothing, the serendipity moment of Dave actually updating his LinkedIn profile has caused him to have 10 meetings.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
You will be surprised that, certainly when you first get on, that you will get people going, "I didn't know you did that."
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
The worst thing that can happen is for them to say, "I didn't know you did that, but we bought that six months ago."
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Tim Hughes:
But, you just need to get out on there, and you just need to have some conversations with people.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given, Tim? Not just about social, it can be about anything, but what's the best piece of advice? I like the one about don't take the letter because you take all the mistakes, that's a nice piece.
Tim Hughes:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is a saying about never suffer fools gladly, that's the saying. Because you're supposed to basically take people who are being foolish, and tear them apart or something, but actually I actually think it's the other way around, that you need to suffer fools gladly. Because I've been in meetings where people have said things which everybody else went, "That's stupid." And you go, ...
Michelle Carvill:
Is it?
Tim Hughes:
"No, actually that's genius."
Tim Hughes:
Right now, we need to experiment. If someone says, "What about doing this?" You go, ...
Michelle Carvill:
Why not?
Tim Hughes:
"Let's experiment." If it doesn't work, hey, it didn't work. But, having somebody on the team that said, ... because everybody, "Oh yeah, we tried that five years ago and it didn't work." Five years ago was a different place, even from before COVID-19. The acceleration in terms of social, and now that acceleration again with COVID-19. Any idea is a good idea.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely.
Tim Hughes:
Because those are the things that can make a difference.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, hugely. I mean, it brings that creative element, isn't it, that is so often lacking, a bit of energy back into the room.
Michelle Carvill:
I like to finish up the podcast, Tim, by asking you three questions. They're big questions, but it's a bit shoot from the hip, see what you go with. I'm going to fire these questions at you. The first question is if you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?
Tim Hughes:
Yeah, that's a difficult one because there's lots of things that I'd like to change. Of course, it changes a lot at the moment.
Tim Hughes:
I actually think that social is a great empowerer. I'm actually part of an organization created by a French lady, called Chloe, so I'm part of HighChloeCloud. What that is about, is about empowerment of people with social. Now, I don't mean necessarily empowering Richard Branson, I'm talking about anybody, whoever you are, can start a business with a mobile phone and with social media. You can start a global company by doing that.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Hughes:
What I would like to see is more people being empowered with, in effect, mobile, internet, social, and using that as a way to empower themselves to be, in effect, better at business.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, okay. Good, fantastic. I like that. It'd be interesting to have a like to what that group is as well.
Tim Hughes:
Oh yeah, I can do that. Yeah.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. I know you're a reader, I know you're a writer, fellow author. What about reading books, what have you read recently that's inspired you?
Tim Hughes:
The book that I've read recently is Brene Brown, Dare to Lead.
Michelle Carvill:
Brilliant.
Tim Hughes:
I've become a big fan of hers.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah.
Tim Hughes:
I'm now working ... That's her latest, and I'm working back on those books. I mean, she's fantastic. The ability to understand that you can lead with vulnerable, and you can have shame, and all those things, and you would expect to have those things as a leader.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely.
Tim Hughes:
It's a great ... Even if you just go and watch her two TED Talks, they're inspirational.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, fantastic. Yes, good, I've got that on Audible as well. It's a great, great listen, as well as a good read.
Tim Hughes:
Yeah, yeah. I might even get it on Audible, yeah.
Michelle Carvill:
It's good because it's her voice.
Michelle Carvill:
Okay, and the best piece of advice you've already told me about, haven't you, so we've covered our three questions. Is there anything else you'd like to tell our guests, about how they can find out more about the work that you do, Tim, and where they can get hold of you, and connect with you?
Tim Hughes:
Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn, I'm Timothy Hughes, Hughes is spelt H-U-G-H-E-S.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, I'll make sure the links are in the-
Tim Hughes:
People often spell it wrong. And, Timothy_Hughes on Twitter. You can get a copy of my first book, Social Selling Techniques to Influence Buyers and Changemakers, from Amazon worldwide. If you're thinking about doing it, I know I'm biased because I wrote the book, but most people I know who have read the book have come to me and said, "I didn't understand but now I do." That, for me, I've seen so many people's lives change. And come on, it's 20 quid. What's that? $30 on Amazon, it's a small price to pay in terms of, basically, making yourself a better person.
Michelle Carvill:
Perfect. Okay, well it's been wonderful to have you on the podcast, Tim. Thank you so much for joining me today, I really look forward to getting this out there, and sharing those insights.
Tim Hughes:
Thank you, Michelle.
Michelle Carvill:
You've been listening to the Get Social Connected Leader podcast. Thank you to my guest, and indeed, thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues, and friends who you think will enjoy it, and indeed, subscribe to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms, and all episodes are also on our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts. You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site, too, so be sure to check those out.
Michelle Carvill:
So for now, from me Michelle Carvill, your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in, and goodbye.
Michelle Carvill:
Oh! PS. If you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies, and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me, Michelle@carvillcreative.co.uk.