Get Social - The Connected Leader Podcast - Stephen Kelly-Director at Kimble Applications & Locum's Nest

Michelle: Hello and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast where I, Michelle Carvill, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how in this hyper-connected digital age they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate. You can find all episodes of the podcast together with show notes via our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts.
Michelle: In this episode of the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, I'm delighted to interview Stephen Kelly. Stephen is a proven leader with 35 years of unique global experience in both the private and public sectors. He has held three successful CEO positions within UK FTSE and USA NASDAQ companies, multiple board roles, and spent four years in UK government. Steven is experienced in creating compelling visions to build customer obsessed, innovative businesses with strong ethics, integrity, trust, financial discipline, and diversity. Most recently, Stephen was chief executive of FTSE 100 company Sage Group, the UK's largest technology company, and Sage is seen as one of the most successful FTSE 100 transformations of recent times.
Michelle: So hi, Stephen. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Stephen : Brilliant, Michelle. I've been looking forward to this and I'm very excited about the conversation.
Michelle: Excellent. Me, too. So let's take this to why I contacted you and how I found out about you because like many of my podcast guests, we haven't met physically but I have engaged and spoken with you digitally on Twitter and other online channels and had conversations, some of them that you may remember some of them that you may not. Really, the reason I came to kind of follow you was around when I was writing Get Social and I was looking for case studies of great leaders that were utilizing social technologies to connect and communicate. And I came across you. At the time you were CEOing at Sage and you were very active in social media. So you were always on my hot list to talk about when I got to this podcast as two people in the real world that have done this, doing this, championing this, so here we are.
Michelle: Can we start, Stephen, with how you got started with digital? I mean, I know you've been in digital a long time, so where did this all come from for you and why did you feel it was important as a leader to continue that as a very personal channel to talk about the work that you do?
Stephen : Yeah, Michelle, I think it's probably worth also saying that we all are leaders. I've had an amazing career. Very humbling, actually. But whether you're a teacher, you're a scout leader, everybody, you coach a local hockey team, netball team, you are a leader and I think inevitably you project your values on a broader community. My values are around things like transparency, authenticity, and obviously around value. I guess I've been a life adventure in terms of growing businesses. I've been chief executive as you said, of Sage, Accordion, Micro Focus. Fantastic companies. I was very lucky to serve the public as chief operating officer of the UK government as well. So within that, yes, there's a core set of values where I thought they could be amplified with points of view through social media.
Stephen : So I really got started probably just or after about 2010 on social media, and I saw it as a channel mainly for as a leader in a business context, you think about two sets of stakeholders all the time. Obviously you think about broader stakeholders like investors, suppliers, partners, community. But the things that sort of keep you up at night is around serving your customers and putting the customers at the heart of your organization and bringing in all your colleagues with you.
Stephen : Therefore, I wanted to make sure that social media was just a channel of communication for our colleagues to really feel confident they could be brand ambassadors and for us to have a very transparent relationship with them, and likewise with our customers, we bring them into ... I used to use phrases like in every meeting we have, we should keep [inaudible 00:04:37] for a customer and what would the customer think and let's go out and find out and go talk to them again. And again, what I've always been fascinated is where technology gives you the ability to sort of have mass customization and talk to millions of customers and have a very authentic, very high integrity conversation with them.
Stephen : And also, reality's great when customers complain to you as a CEO because you find out what's going on, and as all leaders sometimes people sort of tell you what you want to hear, whereas on social you kind of get it very clean, very authentic, and very straight. So I started back then and then when I became actually chief operating officer at the government at the end of the sort of coalition uptime, what was it, 2012 in the middle of, actually, we used it as a fantastic means to celebrate successes. At the time there was some amazing, amazing innovation going on in government with the launch of things like GOV.UK which connects 60 million citizens, and I thought it was a great way to celebrate the team's success. That project won loads of awards, best design award, all these sort of thing, and also I think in this world ... obviously I think journalists have got a pretty tough job these days, but everybody's got a point of view. And I don't know today where you go really for just authentic, uncut, unvarnished truths and facts, so I think as a leader what you want to do is make sure you get your point of view out and serve the community you do.
Stephen : And simplistically [inaudible 00:06:13] sort of CEO as I was, we wanted customers alternately to be advocates and do a great job for them and bring them into the room in every conversation, and we wanted our colleagues to be brand ambassadors. So as a CEO, you have a dream of creating a movement and I think social media just is a fantastic channel if you use wisely to allow you to do that.
Michelle: And there's so many brilliant points you touch on there, Stephen. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, because I've mentioned this a few times in the conversations we've had in the podcasts that I'm a great reader. I've read so many business books over the years and the essence of walking the floor, of leading by being with your team, by listening to them, by really being the man on the ground like you say, not sitting in a meeting and people telling you what you want to hear but actually getting out there and seeing it for as it really is. That does, social media does ... they talk about walking the floor. Social media does enable you to do that at scale, doesn't it? As you've touched on there, not just with your customers to hear what they're saying and bring some of those sometimes uncomfortable aspects back into the board room, but also importantly the team, your colleagues, the all important doers that sometimes don't feel as involved as maybe they could be.
Stephen : Yeah, I think it touches on the core values of leaders and I've been always very down to earth. I don't like terminology like them and us is us and us. Every company I've worked for, we never talked about staff because the next thing you talk about is management and it just creates division. Whereas you always talked about colleagues. We're in this together. And when I actually turned up as Sage, one of the first things I did was get rid of private jet because I travel on the tube, I travel buses. We're just regular people and I think great leaders truthfully never forget where they came from and always have that sense of compassion that they really want to create compelling visions for customers and colleagues. And with that, if you do it the right way, then you create a following.
Stephen : And again, many people engage on social media to put their points of view and it just gives you a melting pot of conversations that you can use wisely and make sure you prioritize on a decisive ground, but ultimately it just keeps you connected with the people. And yeah, again, every company I've joined and every organization when they had executive offices and corner offices, the first decision I would make is get rid of those. We go open plan. We sit out with the people. We're one of the people, and initially I think are a bit shocked. People are probably a bit reserved when they see us sitting out at an open plan office with everybody else like developers and marketing folks and finance folks, but then they just realize you're there every day. Every CEO I've known, just every entrepreneur, they just want to make a difference. They want to do the best they can. They don't have many [inaudible 00:09:17] and they really are very authentic and they're good people, and that's the heart of building great companies.
Michelle: It is. And I think that is ... the values that you talk about there, they are hierarchy-busting, aren't they? They are. It's just very grounded. It's that opportunity and just the opportunity, but that's the, I suppose, gift of just being able to communicate at that level without that them and us, that this is just a very human conversation, a very human endeavor to just let's all work together and create something great. But for lots of people, that isn't a traditional way, and I know business is changing all the time and digital is certainly helping that to become a bit more flatter, but there are definitely structures where that isn't the case and therefore you can see where there might be some resistance against social media.
Stephen : Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think what we're talking about is the heart of, I guess of meritocracy, an organization that has alignment around the values, the vision, what they're trying to achieve in terms of the strategies to change the world and make the customer life a better life, and all we have with social media is a great way to amplify that and accelerate that. In the old days 30 years ago, you had to fly around the world and you had to town hall meetings, and we still do some of that, but you can get your message out an awful lot quicker. Colleagues, customers are all stakeholders. Investors, analysts, a community you live in, they do appreciate when you tell them when things are going well. They also appreciate when you tell them things aren't going well because again I think there is, particularly in the British hierarchy, probably a healthy level of cynicism and a good sense of humor to sort of distrust leaders.
Michelle: Yes.
Stephen : And a lot of that distrust in my experience [inaudible 00:11:22] some incredible leaders is not deserved. So what social media has allowed us to do is ... it's an interesting topic. Within minutes you almost start having a conversation that 30 years ago it would have taken maybe months or years of a person face to face contact to have, and for some reason I don't know what it is. There's probably some psychology study around this. People seem to trust what's on social media more than they do in the regular broadsheets and press and TV and media, and that trust is earned much, much, much quicker than it ever could have been imagined again before social media appeared.
Michelle: Yeah. And of course people can nip the rumors in the bud, can't they, very quickly as well at the same time? If there's something going around, then it's a case of if the CEO comes out and says, "Look, this is how it is," then all of that potential noise and rumors and such as it can go on for weeks and months, and that can cripple organizations and share prices. That can all just be stopped very quickly, can't it, through just authentic, transparent, responsive communication?
Stephen : Yeah. And I think it's the case. I'm at [inaudible 00:12:35] Amazing people in the civil service ministers. All these people work unbelievably hard and typically 99.9% of them have massive ethics and want to do the right thing, and sometimes sort of the media conspires to think, "That's shady. They're not doing the right thing." But what it does is when I've led organizations, one of the things I try to bring to them is we have a culture where we fail fast, and I think again, through social, through internets and stuff like that, it's quite good for the leader, the CEO in this case, to say, "Actually, something we tried in the strategy hasn't gone so well. We're going to stop it and double down on what is working." And otherwise there's this cult culture of the fear of failure, which is a disaster because it builds massive risk aversion, [inaudible 00:13:27] frightened of themselves, of their own shadows, and it stifles innovation and it stifles progress for customers and colleagues and all the stakeholders.
Stephen : The other thing I would say is about this, it's a broader discussion on social media, but a lot of people will say everything's a binary choice and actually is polarized in the sort of political discussion in Britain at the moment where it's a very black and white choice. So people will say to you, "Do you want me to do this for customers or do you want us to be more profitable?" Something crazy like that. And my experience is you can actually serve all stakeholders, customers, partners, suppliers, colleagues, investors, analysts, and the community, and if you do through the right way and bring people with you, then everybody can be delighted with the successes you enjoy and the wealth you create and the prosperity and the innovation from products and services and customers.
Stephen : So the sort of missing jewel in the crown 20, 30 years ago, there wasn't a way to sort of operationalize that with philosophy and precision, whereas social media allows you to do that. And obviously, we all get things wrong. As leaders, we fall on our sword, we stand up either on social media or face to face in town hall meetings and say, "Look, this didn't go well, but we're doubling down. It's the right thing to do. We're going to innovate with a new product or whatever it is," and it allows you to do at a fraction of the time was in the old world before social media.
Michelle: Yeah. And I think, and that's interesting because it's almost ... I asked the question, and I took it and I say that in my view, I think that being a great leader in social media aren't using social media as the social technologies in this way are inextricably linked because it's almost ... I mean, as you've kind of aligned with through what you were just saying there, Stephen, is that it shines a light if you're not doing those things, doesn't it?
Stephen : Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think it is a responsibility of leaders in 2019 to be in the conversation.
Michelle: Yeah.
Stephen : A large part of the conversation. It's not the only part of the conversation, but a large part is on social media, and you've got to think about i [inaudible 00:15:44]. You always go where the audiences go, where your customers are, and if they happen to be on an individual channel within social media, you want to be participating within that and bringing in your point of view to see how you're improving their lives, and for us it was easy, I guess in my last role at Sage. It was very clear that we had a responsibility to be the champion of entrepreneurs. I've got so many data points saying 66% of new jobs have been created by small and medium businesses. These are [inaudible 00:16:15] to the economy. They're out there working 60 hours a week and rolling their sleeves up, and yet they didn't really have a voice.
Stephen : And I thought, "Wow. Well, they need a voice." And the more and more I talked to ... I met tens of thousands of entrepreneurs in my time and they really valued not only brilliant technology that allowed them to get on and grow their businesses and not worry about their systems, but they also valued a champion of theirs. Putting their points of view fought about whether it's business rates that are stifling their growth or whether high speed broadband in Scotland that doesn't allow them to get on the internet. All their points of view. Late payments from big companies is just stifling their cashflow. So it's picking out the issues for your community and then allowing you to represent them, and do it with integrity, honesty, and authenticity.
Michelle: And so what do you, because there is push back. I know. I see on LinkedIn posts and in conversations in Twitter. People will chime in. Fellow CEOs that will jump in and say, "Oh, this is nuts. Why are we expecting CEOs to be spending their time on social media? We've got jobs to be doing and not to be putting out postured messages" and dah dah dah. I mean, what do you say to that kind of push back?
Stephen : Well, I think in 2019 it's part of the job of a leader, and I think there's some interest in the example in the old world where you looked at business to consumer, sort of marketing and business to business and they were quite distinctive. Through actual social media is colliding these different worlds together and it's just created a platform for conversations. And I think it's the responsibility actually for chief executives. If they feel passionate as most of the ones I know do about creating a compelling vision, change the world, improving the world for customers, then they want a platform to be able to express those views succinctly. And in the old days it used to be emails, town hall meetings, letters to colleagues, customers. Now all that can happen in a fraction of the time but a fraction of the cost and accelerate the velocity of those conversations to make them more effective.
Michelle: Yeah.
Stephen : So why wouldn't you want to participate in those? I struggled to understand the logic now, but a couple of examples. I think it's about three years ago when I didn't know this, but I got an award for the leading CEO on social media, and then as a byproduct to that, then the Financial Times on this front page did a preview of the CEOs of the future and social [inaudible 00:19:04] part of that, and I got name checked in that. And then I got a lot of customers saying, "Oh, it was great to see you in the Financial Times." So it's almost like this virtuous flywheel, this virtual circle, if you're doing the right things and you're honest with things don't go well and you're out there with a voice and a platform on all media channels. But obviously social is a critical part of that.
Michelle: Yeah.
Stephen : And then you create this fly wheel where the brand advocates, your colleagues love working there. They tell partners and customers it's a great place to be. They love their CEO and there's loads of other sort of platforms where there's pulses through net promoter scores to measure the health of your customers and loads of different platforms like Glassdoor to look after colleagues.
Stephen : So yeah, all these things start into connecting ultimately success or alternatives to that, and I think being part of the conversation on social media for chief executives and public leaders is a very important more, and then obviously back to an example, if you're running a netball team or you're a coach or a scout leader, again you probably going to use social media and you have to be careful, I guess, if you're dealing with children, but you really want to celebrate their successes, so they feel great and their parents feel great if they won a County cup or the national finals and you want to celebrate that because everybody feels good about that. And it's nice to have the visibility and the pictures, the videos and all those sorts of things because it just brings it to life.
Michelle: It does. It does. And it's also it's that it's recognition, isn't it? And it's being heard and it's being recognized and all of those aspects as well. So you talked about there about the CEO's being where the customers are. What does that mean for you then in the actual channels that you've chosen to use? Where do you ... which channels are you using and where do you feel more comfortable? I mean obviously we say go fish where the fish are, but be where your customers are. But that's Instagram and you're not [inaudible 00:21:11] ooh, what do I do on Instagram? Where do you position yourself on the channels themselves? Which channels are you using and which ones do you love and why?
Stephen : Yeah, I think there's probably a couple of things you want to think about, Michelle. One is what conversations do you want to participate in? So [inaudible 00:21:27] social media, we could spend 36 hours a day getting very engaged in different topics and never get any sleep. So I think you've got to be discerning about all of the things you want to have a strong point of view on. From me opposite, it's all about entrepreneurs being the voice of them and their community and champion, but also things I really care about where I think business could make a massive difference in the communities, help the vulnerable, so this area we call compassionate capitalism, equality, and also things actually close to my heart like homelessness. There's lots of things I care about, but on social media I tend to just say what are the top two or three things that I really care about? And they're the sorts of things that I want to have a point of view on. And also, I'd advise any entrepreneurs out there to think about what are the issues their customers care about because they're the sorts of things they'll look for your leadership and your thought leadership on. So it's a couple of things.
Stephen : And then on the channels itself, just for me, I've found probably the priority channels tend to be Twitter and LinkedIn, and then also Instagram and Facebook. And Instagram is really good because a lot of the customers are looking to I guess market their products and services through those channels as well. So I think the key question on the channels is you've got to ask yourself where is your audience? And there's a load of data out there to tell you which channels have which demographics so you could make your selections according to that. But again, it's pretty tough from four, five channels.
Stephen : So you might want to start, if you're not out there at all, maybe just pick one issue that's relevant to your customers and maybe pick the top channel where your audience will be and just start with one channel, and then maybe review how it's going in six, nine months and maybe join another channel. That can be obviously different channel dynamics, different skills, [inaudible 00:23:20] different things like whether it's portrait or landscape pictures, all these sorts of things. So with all these things, just start small. Take one step at a time. See how it goes. If it's going well, double down on that channel, and then when it's going really well and you think you've got critical mass and you're happy, then think about what's the next relevant channel.
Michelle: That's great advice, Stephen. And did you, and do you ... where do you feel about it being your voice, you doing your own messaging through the channels or do you get support with it? What about the practicalities? Because as you said, it can take a lot of time, so is it something that you do 100% yourself or is it something that you would liaise with others and get it the content around? How would that work from a practical level?
Stephen : Every Monday morning, Michelle, I sat down with my team. We talked about the two or three major themes that we wanted to have strategically, and then we looked at the week ahead and obviously now as an example, kids back at school, stuff happening in Parliament. If any of the those major events in the world collided with our two or three strong points of view, then that gave us a weekly plan that we'd actually go and execute on to post content on all the channels as we determined was relevant. The other thing for anybody who's a CEO out there and entrepreneur, when you go on app to see your customers, it just costs nothing to just pop your iPhone out and do a video of you asking them questions like, "What's happening in your world? What is keeping you up at night? What are your customers demanding?" Even questions like, "What's your view of [inaudible 00:25:01] in the context of the de-valued pound?" All these sorts of things that might be relevant to people out on social media, so it's very low cost. It is very informal.
Stephen : On days as I said before where you had camera crews that cost, I don't know, thousands of pounds a day, and now you can just take your iPhone out and you are fully equipped to be posting and being part of the conversation. Now I was very lucky at Sage and have an inspirational leader of communications, Amy Laws, and Amy actually [inaudible 00:25:33] was also the colleague representative on the main board. She built a fantastic comms team at Sage, and one of the guys who led that charge, we had pretty much full time on social media called Darrell West. But effectively we'd sit down with the guys and the team every Monday morning and say kind of what's going on, what's happening with our strategies, what's happening in the world, and therefore what are the points of view we want to take on various things.
Stephen : And then [inaudible 00:26:01] progresses, you've sort of got a plan and then you dynamically course correct it according to what events in the world. Now what I'm doing now is I post quite a bit of my stuff on things like Twitter. Again, it's kind of me. That's why the quality probably, or the pictures is not optimal because I'm a rudimentary technologist in that respect. But I have some help from an amazing inspirational mentor. He's an author and he's a sort of massive evangelist for entrepreneurs. Works out in Canada, lives out near Toronto, called Evan Carmichael, so he gives me the help now. But in essence, the good news is even if you've got a business of one person or three people or 10 people, you can make a big contribution and you're out there meeting customers, you're talking about new markets, you're talking about new products, there's loads of amazing content that you could create that your customers would probably want you to post and start following an a movement.
Michelle: Yeah. It's funny because I remember some of those videos of you just stood talking. Those were some of the things I was like, "Look at this guy. He's just having great conversations with his customers" And yeah, they were really well engaged as well, isn't it? It's what people kind of chime with, that there is this real conversation going on and you're a real person. You're not stuck in some room somewhere that nobody gets to see you. So yeah, I remember those. That's great that you remind me of those interviews and things.
Stephen : It's funny, Michelle ... sorry to interrupt you. A couple of situations where customers then subsequently pinged me either on social or dropped me a message and they said, "Wow, we've had some of our customers respond to your video that you posted on social media, and they loved it." So the irony is you as the chief executive go and interview a customer, talk about what's happening in their world, and then their customers love the content.
Michelle: Yeah.
Stephen : It's fantastic. So actually if you're doing it for your customers, from their point of view it's just free PR.
Michelle: It is.
Stephen : It's a great opportunity.
Michelle: It is. And so I mean you have been active, you've been championing digital innovation, as you say, in a number of organizations and and roles of the years. What would you say, and it's a big question, I suppose after all that, but what would you say has been your biggest learning so far around the application of social media activity?
Stephen : I think probably ... I sort of touched on this before. Number one, lots of positives. You do have this virtuous circle where not only social media becomes mainstream, but it also influences other medias like broadsheets, the BBC-
Michelle: Yeah.
Stephen : ... all these and your different communities that you're serving, which is very powerful. The other thing that's probably shocked me actually is the level of trust that you build up [inaudible 00:29:00] Michelle, we connected on social media. We're a great example of this.
Michelle: Yeah.
Stephen : It almost felt I knew you a decade and yet I only have known you 15 minutes.
Michelle: Yep.
Stephen : [inaudible 00:29:12] social media where there's almost a bond of trust that is very quickly established, and obviously with that comes responsibility.
Michelle: Yes.
Stephen : You can't abuse that trust. But it just ... the speed of velocity in terms of relationship building through social media is overwhelming, and obviously this is sort of outside the scope of this conversation, but all the dating apps and all those sorts of things just kind of prove my point in massive volumes.
Michelle: It does. And it's interesting ... and it's almost, I mean I'm writing another book at the moment and I've just finished writing a chapter about the impact of social media on networking because it's almost reversed, the role. I mean traditionally you would meet somebody physically in a room or at an event and you would connect, and then you may go on to email them and keep connected via a digital connection because it was difficult to meet physically, ongoing.
Michelle: Whereas now what I'm finding and what I hear a lot from other people that I'm speaking to is that actually a lot of the connections are made online and sometimes for years and years, but at the time you didn't meet one another actually. I mean, it happened yesterday. I met somebody who I had connected with on social media, and it's happened quite a lot over the last couple of years. And I've known these ... I've been speaking to people for years and yet when we meet it's like I've known them for years, but as you say, we've only actually met. So it's reversing that introduction, isn't it, into networking? It's quite interesting.
Stephen : Yes, Michelle. So again, if there's chief executives listening, then an amazing way to transform the whole culture within the company to be a very customer obsessed culture where you and every one of your colleagues is [inaudible 00:31:03] the customers is really around social media. And one thing I very publicly did when I turned up ... sadly Sage, there was a technology shift to the cloud and it was probably fair to say and the commentators said, that Sage to the cloud denier, and truthfully most of the executives thought of customers as an afterthought. So I thought I had to make some bold statements around that, too, to really re-engage the whole company around customers. Because all great companies I've experienced, they generally put the customer at the heart of the business. So one of the things I did was go very big on social media, give people my cell phone and give open access, approachability to the chief executives.
Stephen : And it's amazing. I got loads of customers just coming in with complaints. I always say things like, "Feedback is the breakfast of champions," and it's great when customers complaints because if they're complaining to you, they actually want you to do something about it. The worst thing is they leave you and then they become a massive detractor publicly once they've left you, but if they complain, you can do something about it. So, just as an example, there was a fantastic entrepreneur, she had a flower shop ... Barbara up in Birmingham. She DMed me, I don't know, it was probably five to six midweek and two minutes to six I called her on a cell phone, and first of all she was gobsmacked.
Michelle: I bet.
Stephen : Gobsmacked. Secondly, she said, "Oh, God. I'm really sorry. I'm cooking the dinner and my daughter [inaudible 00:32:39] upstairs. Can you call me back in an hour?" So anyway, I called her back at seven o'clock. We fixed her problem by eight o'clock because she told me what it was. I could [missing audio 00:32:49] straight away, and now you know that relationship is a relationship for life. But I ... the magic was that I could come back at the next town hall meeting and tell every one of my colleagues that story, so then they knew, "Wow, this guy really cares about customers. This is no BS. This is real. This customer has got to be ready for prime time in everything we do." So those sort of relentless opportunities to remind colleague what's really important and really build that great culture that we all respond to in terms of being obsessed about customers again can be really enhanced by giving the customers incredible access to all executives and just smashing the hierarchy.
Michelle: Yeah, and that is, I mean that really is a great example of leading by example. And it's not saying that the CEO has to become the chief customer service operator, but it is about understanding at the grassroots as to the real challenges. And also saying, "Look, I'm prepared to roll my sleeves up and sort these out. You guys have all got to be prepared to roll your sleeves and sort this out no matter what." And that really ... if the CEO is doing that, that really gets permission, doesn't it, for the rest of the organization to do the same?
Stephen : Yeah. And I think people really like it when they see the CEO on all hands, on their all fours [inaudible 00:34:16] doing ... there's ... obviously you can't do everything. You don't want to. You really want to empower the team. But sometimes when there's either a crisis or whatever, it's great to see the executives roll up their sleeves-
Michelle: Yeah.
Stephen : ... then we're all in this together. Come on guys, what do we need to do to sort this out?
Michelle: Yeah.
Stephen : And then it creates a legacy where there's mythology in the company because people talk about these stories around [inaudible 00:34:41] and stuff like that. And it's a real catalyst to changing the culture to where everybody becomes an insurgent for customers.
Michelle: Yeah. Love that. Stephen, I'm conscious of time. You've been very, very generous with sharing these wonderful insights and there's absolute so many gems within here for all the listeners. I like to end with some three quick-fire, learn about the leader-style questions, so these are away from social media and digital and a little bit more about you. I think we've all picked up a sense how you are and who you are and your view as a leader. So can I fire these quick questions at you? Some of them are pretty big questions, but it's just top of the head stuff.
Stephen : Yeah, go for it, Michelle. I fear I won't do you justice, but give it a go.
Michelle: I'm sure you will. Okay. So if you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?
Stephen : I would like our leaders to connect with those who have no voice.
Michelle: Great. Great. And I think that's very much come across throughout the whole of your interview actually through this podcast and that sentiment, so I love that. And second question, which book have you read recently that's inspired you?
Stephen : Oh, this is easiest. Yeah. I've got three amazing grown-up daughters and they educate me and I learn an awful lot about the world, and actually they've help me unlearn some of the things 30 years ago. So one of the books recommended by one of my daughters was by Rebecca Solnit and it's called Call Them by Their True Names.
Michelle: Cool.
Stephen : Very challenging in terms of thinking, and it's not a business book, but it really stops you in your tracks and says, wow. Again, it's about connecting to people who have no voice, the poor, the homeless, and we do live in a world where it's a very celebrity culture [inaudible 00:36:37] and all that sort of stuff. So this is ... I love the authenticity of people who challenge the status quo and the thinking.
Michelle: Oh, I love the sound of that. I will definitely look that up and I'll make sure the link is in the show notes for the podcast as well, so thank you. And what's the best piece of advice you've been given to date?
Stephen : Probably two, if I can indulge. One is when I was probably early ... I did a work experience placement, and this is only when I was 19. Someone pulled me aside. It was about amazing 30-year experience individual and just said, "I've watched you and you do lots of things where you've got tons of energy but there's one thing I've learned more and more is just one word you always need to think about is empathy. [missing audio 00:37:25] self in the shoes of other people in the room. Put yourself in the shoes of your customers. And empathy is, I think, a really good kind of moral compass for us to pursue.
Stephen : Then secondly, I'll indulge with Evan Carmichael, who's an amazing entrepreneur, but an evangelist for entrepreneurs, does big speaking tours around the US and North America. Brilliant author. And his advice to me and everybody, I think, it's really very profound advice, is just believe. Just one word, believe. Back yourself. I think there's so many people out there who fear failure, who have voices in their head telling them not to do things, but if you believe, then you'll back yourself and you'll take the first step to success.
Michelle: Fantastic. Well, Stephen, what a great interview. What a great ... I'd say interview, but it's not an interview. It's just a wonderful conversation and it's been an absolute delight. I'm really glad that we finally got there. We got a date in to have this conversation, and I really do thank you for coming onto the podcast and sharing such fantastic insights. There's so many, so many gems in there for people to take away, so thank you so much.
Stephen : No, I love it, and good luck to you Michelle. I think the platform you're building here through the podcasts is, yeah, inspirational, and I wish you very good luck on your adventures.
Michelle: Thank you so much. You've been listening to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast. Thank you to my guest, and indeed thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it and indeed subscribe to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms and all episodes are also on our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts. You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site, too, so be sure to check those out. So for now, from me, Michelle Carvill, your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in and goodbye. Ooh, P.S. If you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me, Michelle at carvillcreative.co.uk.