Get Social - The Connected Leader Podcast - Tim Williams, CEO at Onalytica

Michelle Carvill:
Hello and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader podcast, where I, Michelle Carvill, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how, in this hyper-connected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate. You can find all episodes of the podcast together with show notes via our website carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts.
Michelle Carvill:
In this episode of the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, I'm delighted to interview Tim Williams. Tim has over 15 years experience connecting brands with their key influencers across political, traditional media and social media channels. He joined Onalytica in 2012 and became CEO in 2014. Tim has personally led the influencer program strategy and implementation for brands such as Microsoft, Barclays, IBM, Coca-Cola, Thomson Reuters, The Gates Foundation, The British Heart Foundation and RSPB, helping them to incorporate social influencer relations into their marketing and communications strategy. Okay. So Tim, thank you so much for being here on the podcast.
Tim Williams:
Thank you very much, Michelle. It's a pleasure being here.
Michelle Carvill:
Great. Like many of the people that I have interviewed on this podcast, our paths crossed via the wonderful conversations that were going on around a topic on Twitter. I then explored a little bit more about what you were talking about because we were all part of the similar conversation, and of course I thought, here is a perfect candidate for my podcast. So here you are, CEO of Onalytica, and you are active yourself as a leader on social media, leading from the front. I've seen you with your doing lives, sharing insights and great pieces of advice about not only the work that you're doing, but actually practical things that people who may want to work with you or just generally, just great, general thought leadership content that you're sharing out there. Tell me a little bit about your journey with social media and why as a leader, you are active on there pretty much day in, day out?
Tim Williams:
Sure. Thank you for those kind words. I'm Gen X, I was born in the '70s, so I wasn't really majorly into social media in my 20s and 30s. I was just using Facebook for keeping in touch with friends, and LinkedIn at work because I was in sales roles, just to learn more about customers and prospects.
Tim Williams:
What's quite interesting is I went to San Francisco in 2008, when someone mentioned Twitter, but they said it in American accent, so it was more like Twitter. I thought, this seems like a really stupid business, there's just a few words that are pushed out on this social network. I thought it was pretty abstract to human life. It's very ironic that I'm now running a social networks analytics business six years later, that's when I started Onalytica. And then into 2020. My journey was, I wouldn't say that I'm a Millennial, but social media's in my blood. It was a big opportunity to draw insights from social media and to communicate better with people's target audience. I think brands needed a lot of help. It was really the business opportunity, and then seeing how these wonderful networks like Twitter and LinkedIn and Instagram, et cetera, are actually making a big difference in business.
Michelle Carvill:
That's so interesting because that was exactly my view of Twitter all those years ago. I remember somebody showing it to me, and I remember going like, "What? How is this going to be interesting?" But from a marketing perspective, you're from the sales background, I was from the marketing. Marketing and sales, so inextricably linked. It was really, as you said, that opportunity to see that here were people having real conversations about real stuff that was going on. Views, some of them interesting, some of them not. But the conversations that brands could listen into and could glean insights from, that business opportunity is still very much there as an opportunity. Of course, the area that you've moved into is more around the influencer side of things as well.
Tim Williams:
Sure. I think social media has obviously had a massive effect. But I think when I've seen organizations being set up, they've got insights teams that were very late to the party and drawing unsolicited outcomes out of social media. Then you've got marketing and comms, teams that are not analysts, so can't really interpret the social media data into the strategy. So I think that over the past 10 years, there's been a massive strategic blindspot for a lot of companies. Obviously, that has significantly changed and now social media is integrated into insights and business as usual marketing and comms activity. But I do think that it's been a big seismic shift internally at companies to be able to leverage the opportunity and social media. I think there's still a big way to go, especially when we're talking about getting out there on social media and spreading your messages.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. I always liken it to the fact that, I think one of the challenges that we had with social technologies was that they were free and accessible to absolutely everybody, so they weren't a business tool. The pushback or the challenges I've heard over the years when either consulting in organizations or trying to shift some hearts and minds around what the social technologies can enable is that, Oh, it's people taking pictures of their breakfast, or when they're out for lunch, there's nothing interesting on there. This is nonsense. 90% of it is nonsense.
Michelle Carvill:
Of course, those insights, like you say, haven't really been the opportunity because they were free tools, because they were never positioned as market research, marketing communications, conversational tools within organizations and they were just free activities that we humans were just working with day in, day out. It's taken that full circle to come around to a business application really.
Tim Williams:
Sure, I couldn't agree more. What frustrates me the most is when people are talking in that light, to say, "I don't really get that channel, it's just people posting what they've had for lunch or breakfast." But I think quite a lot of the people that have that rhetoric are just not on the channels, don't understand how search works. Because I think, and this was in maybe 2009 to '16 and '17, people were just obsessed about their friends and family posting just irrelevant content. But actually, there are these wonderful topical communities around, it could be climate change with obviously, Davos happening at the moment and WEF there. It could be on AI, it could be the future of work. Because we're an analytics company, if you look into the data here, you can see that there are globally, sometimes 2,000 to 5,000 influential voices in each one of these topical communities.
Tim Williams:
We've actually looked into how many topical communities there are across business thought leadership areas in industries like finance, tech, healthcare, energy, environment. We believe that there are 500 distinct topical communities that are driving massive conversations going forward. It could be the health tech debate, it could be something around the future of energy. There's a critical mass of influential voices on a global level, but also on a local level, if you look at this in the US, or Canada, UK, France, Germany, Japan, China, all these different local markets, there's a localized conversation that are driving a lot of influence there.
Tim Williams:
What's really interesting is that, is how to gain insights from that and how to enter that conversation. Because the influencers and the influential voices, they have earned their strips and really put in the effort to then influence a lot of the stakeholders and target audience. It's about not having to do that by yourself, but where do you input yourself in that conversation? Or where do you glean insights from it so that you can work out your strategy? So when people are saying, "I don't see the point of these social networks," I think they're really looking at it from a very simplistic analog attitude. Plus, they probably haven't logged into that channel to actually spend 10 minutes looking at what is possible.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely. That is always the change, isn't it? The shift where you say, well, let's just have a look, let's do some searches. Let's see what type of things are happening on the channels. Then there will be the eyes wide open. When you know what to do and you know how to interrogate and extrapolate what you need from those channels, they talk about it being the biggest focus group in the world. If you know what you want to get out from the conversations, then it's rich. It's rich and it's relevant. That's so fascinating. Again, I think the data really supports, and the analysis really supports these case studies. There are so many case studies where organizations have literally driven innovation and created new products based on what these consumer groups or influential groups have been saying through social media channels.
Tim Williams:
Sure. It's real time market research at its best especially with the FMCG, big consumer debates on issues in forums and stuff like that. If you look at the Mom Community, then that's a good example of where people can innovate their product. So yeah, couldn't agree more.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. When it comes to leadership then, because this is the Connected Leader and the role of the leader, you as a leader of your organization are very comfortable utilizing these channels because your business is understanding the power of these channels and the influence that can be generated through these channels. What have you found when you're working with organizations, when you're talking about influence, are many of the leaders actually physically engaged or are they the ones that are sat there saying, this is about pictures of breakfast?
Tim Williams:
Yeah, I think this is a fascinating point. What I would say is that, at the beginning, when I started pushing myself into more of a CEO on social media role and leader, then I didn't feel completely comfortable at the beginning. I didn't expect to feel comfortable, and everyone has to push their boundaries. I've always believed. It's a bit like the analogy on a ski slope, if you're not falling over, then you're not pushing yourself or learning on the ski slopes. I felt like I had to go out there and demonstrate it. Also, you've got to eat your own dog food, you've got to practice what you preach. We can't say to clients, go out there, it's going to drive amazing impact, if you're not doing it yourself and not feeling what the impact is and learning all the time.
Tim Williams:
I think the first time that you're pushing yourself out on social media, it doesn't have to feel comfortable, I think that's the first thing. I very much needed, I think, three to six months to get into my stride. The second thing is, when we're looking at exec leaders and pushing out on social media, is some people feel like they're the expert in the room and just need a bit of training on how to convey that in social media. But I think other people feel like they're not the leading expert, so feel a bit uneasy about pushing out their opinion on that.
Tim Williams:
What you can do is you can find influencers that are experts there and you can integrate yourself into the conversation or interview one of them as a way of easing yourself into it and being connected to certain thought leadership areas or innovation areas that you want to be known for without having all the answer by yourself. I think there's always a way, and this really comes down to the persona of the leader. In a lot of tech companies in the US, you'll find amazing tech brains, but they might not be too comfortable on stage. You have Mark Zuckerberg, for example, or Jimmy Wells from Wikipedia. I don't think that they were natural-
Michelle Carvill:
Supermen, no.
Tim Williams:
... leaders in social media. At the beginning, I don't think Jimmy Wells really raises his head above the parapet too much. They might be a persona that needs some communications training and coercing to get out there. Whereas other people are fabulous on camera, they really love the limelight, but they need extra expertise or they might want to associate themselves with existing thought leadership experts. I think it's about comms teams and marketing teams and social media teams managing that exec if the exec isn't pushing themselves out there by themselves.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, that's all really great advice. I like that about the idea that people need different things, don't they? You've got different personalities. I've heard that. I've done couple of coaching with leaders a couple of times where it's been totally anonymous because there was almost like an embarrassment about the fact that they didn't know what to do. It's really like people sometimes shy away from the technologies because they really just don't know how to use them, but the technologies themselves are actually rather simple. I think as you say, it's more about finding their positioning in their voice as to how they want to communicate and then how you actually translate that through the different technologies, the different channels.
Tim Williams:
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Actually I think part of the way to unlock the motivation is to show why it's so important and so the execs want to invest the time. A lot of business leaders or people that are responsible for millions or billions or the main proportion of their revenue will think time on social media could be lost when I'm out there winning clients or retaining revenue as a business leader or doing change management programs. If the business case shown to them internally or the education piece is, so you're talking to five people offline in this room or 200 people, but do you want to talk to 15,000 people per video? And they would of course say, Oh yes, I would love to. If they feel like they're talking to 15,000 relevant people every time they're on a video, then surely they can't ignore them. Then if they've got a few hurdles to be able to not belittle their lack of knowledge because of course with new technologies, they do feel out of their comfort zone.
Tim Williams:
Actually, one of the great comfort zones I think for exec leaders is offline. If they meet someone at an event or if you have a face to face meeting, they are like a house on fire, they talk about passionately about their topics. And that's why the interviews with influences who are very proficient at social media with the exec who's got the knowledge is a perfect blend because then if the exec does have support in posting their content with the right hashtags and tagging the right people, if that profile can be managed and suddenly their video gets seen by 20,000 people, they start getting all this inbound, they start seeing the effects on the business and they can't get enough of it. But if they don't get to that point and the progress is too slow or they see it as a waste of time, they tend to shut down. I think that is the nut that we try and help people to crack and is the most of interesting behavioral psychology barrier that I see with the exec.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely. That fear of nobody being interested, that's a reality. I've just been reading the Edelman Trust Barometer report, it came out a few days ago for 2020, looking back at the insights from 2019. And it's interesting that last year there was a call for more CEOs to be leading, to be taking a stand, to have a voice on key areas around climate, around technology, around sustainability, around all the key aspects of skills and upscaling and making sure future-proofing, all of those key areas.
Michelle Carvill:
More of us are expecting that leaders are visible and that they have a voice and that they are able to communicate. And of course, we're expecting them to be able to communicate on channels that the majority of people connect and communicate, which includes social media. It's not only social media, but it's a big cut off of the way we connect and communicate. So what advice do you have for not only is it about seeing, because of course, if there's a business case for doing it and they can see the rewards from aligning with another part of the conversation or another influential cause and they are part of that, that's definitely easing them into it. But what about the being the demand? There is this expectation from their consumers, from their employees that they need to be visible.
Tim Williams:
Yeah, I think that's the key point. To have anonymous CEOs I don't think looks good as a business. And the teams that tend to, with the larger enterprises, they've obviously got teams to help them manage their time, I think from executive assistance to marketing and comms teams. So it's important to focus the exec on the right channel that they feel comfortable with. But I think it's also to set the example for the employees. So if you don't have a social CEO, then, and I know that a lot of your podcasts speak to this, it's the leading by example. I'm lucky because I run a business in influence marketing and social analytics, and social media is all of our blood. But if you take a business that is not ingrained in that industry, then it's harder to get everyone to cascade all the messages down through social and to find their different voices. So I think that's really important.
Tim Williams:
The Edelman Trust Barometer also points to the fact that people trust peers more than CEOs, journalists, governments and all the rest. The CEO's job I think is also to empower the rest of the organization, to set that example so that employees can share their own content. They can encourage that culture so that the whole organization is developing their thought leadership. Because in the olden day, I tend to sound a bit old now when I say stuff like that so I feel like an old man saying it, but obviously there were more traditional broadcasting methods and advertising was really at the fore. And now that advertising is being trusted less and you need to get your messages out there and you'll be that 'authentic voice'.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes.
Tim Williams:
But I think for the purpose of this podcast, I would define that as just genuinely talking in a normal way to clients and prospects rather than corporate rhetoric that people don't know what to make of. I think that social media is the perfect medium for employees to be able to share bite-sized content and to be able to drive that awareness, credibility and trust. And if the CEO leads that, then it sets the example of this is important priority for the business.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, absolutely. Leads it or as you say, is just part of it. Which gives full permission to everybody else to continue. Yeah, wonderful. It's challenging, isn't it? This future of leadership because it is a whole new set of skills as we've said, it's not just about managing and steering and driving strategy and looking after the business and making sure all of that is getting the right teams on board and making sure all of that is successful. It's also about now consistently communicating, listening, tuning in, utilizing in a more transparent way. Maybe these things have always happened, but we know in a lot of organizations that hasn't happened. There has over in the past and still today, those ivory towers were leaders do not interact with their employees.
Michelle Carvill:
I've interviewed, over the last couple of years, organizations where employees have said, we don't really know what the leadership team does until it comes out and we're told that there's an initiative that we have to follow. So there is a disconnect there. And obviously one of the things we're trying to achieve. One of the things I believe is that social media is a bit of a hierarchy buster. It breaks down those silos and enables that ability to connect and communicate without geographical boundaries, without hierarchical boundaries. So from a leadership perspective then, if I was to ask you the question, is social media part of the job, what would you say to that?
Tim Williams:
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I think it's 1% of everyone's role rather than 100% of the social media team's role. I think that's where the big shift it has to happen. The social media marketing teams are hired and people have social media and the title. They get chucked employee advocacy programs, influence marketing programs, all these, and actually they don't have the skills for those programs. Someone says, Oh, it's got social media in it so you should manage it. I think that we're just probably a couple of years away from that really changing where people just realize that that is not how it should be. So the social media teams should obviously enable and connect to all the organizations to have social media as part of their role. But it does have a part to play.
Tim Williams:
I think that I saw one quote and it was ages ago and way before email where people were talking about whether email was going to be important in business. Now of course, you couldn't think of a life without email. Now I think people are seeing the same as social media that in 10 years time, I don't think any exec could get a job without social media being a really big exponents of their profile. I don't think CVs will be even relevant. I think it'll-
Michelle Carvill:
People will just look at profiles, they'll be just like, yeah.
Tim Williams:
Exactly. I remember creating a CV a couple of years back just from an app that just connected with all of my social networks and made my CV. So I don't think there's a choice, but how this is integrated within a business is very, very challenging both for small, medium sized businesses and obviously the larger enterprises. And I think that your hierarchy buster and analogy is really, really good because the social media strategy also can replace the internet in that. So you can look at social media to find, say if you've got 10,000 employees or 100,000 employees, you can find out that most of them like cycling or going to music festivals and you can see different messages through to them and you can connect up the employee retention strategies with HR, with motivational videos, with educational content and it just is the medium to bring everyone together.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. I'm actually personally way more excited about what social technologies can do within organizations rather than share that message out. The sharing the message out is great, but you've got to get it right internally so that you've got that wonderful story built way then you've got your story straight and you can just share that story out through the channels. But what it can create internally is very exciting. I always liken it to a newsroom and every single employee, regardless of title, is a journalist. They're running around doing, looking, learning, have the ability to report back and if they're reporting back, they can report back to either their own channels or some kind of central social media team who then act like the editors and distribute potentially on behalf of the organization if that's relevant. But once you can get that working, that's very powerful because that really hyperconnects the organization.
Tim Williams:
Sure. The alignment is key and the internal comm strategy becomes the external comm strategy by default.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Tim Williams:
Especially in consumer organizations. Say if it's organization like McDonald's or franchises where the internal comms, because you can't control all the messages on social media and what people say to their friends, so that is your external comm strategy, what you communicate to your employees.
Michelle Carvill:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Because it's consistent, isn't it? Just continuous conversations. Wonderful tip. So if you had a piece of advice, is there anything that you think that over the years that you've been active and driving social for yourself and obviously championing it within your organization, what advice would you give to somebody who is feeling a little bit, gosh, I've just read the Edelman report, I've got to do something about this now, take a stand, get myself active out there, what advice would you give to them?
Tim Williams:
Sure. A couple of things. I would find the medium that works best for you. Don't try and create content on all channels and overextend yourself, especially if you're worried about starting. And don't worry about it being perfect. I think the research shows that the journey is more credible and impactful than being perfect among corporate message all the time. So I think it's okay to have a normal chat as long as the quality, if you're recording videos, for example, as long as the quality isn't really bad to watch and is painful for the listener, I think there has to be a certain quality, but it doesn't have to be perfect. When I do selfie videos on a Thursday or Friday on a week to week basis, then I just use my iPhone and a D Shake app so that there's not a painful experience for people to be able to watch. But I-
Michelle Carvill:
And they're really good. I like them.
Tim Williams:
Oh, thank you. I really just experimented with those and I just wanted to answer the questions that the customers and prospects were asking day to day and just give my honest opinion and to encourage the conversation with the influences that I know have wonderful opinions on the matter. But I mix up my words, they're just a couple of minutes long. So it's not perfect and I'm not trying to be perfect or just wheel out [inaudible 00:30:12] five key messages that people have. So I think that's my one main piece of advice. Write an article, create a short piece of video content and just release it in the medium that works best. In B2B, then LinkedIn and Twitter, you can release videos on both of them and the organic reach is very, very good. Obviously you can photos, and Instagram and Facebook are obviously pretty good for B2C channels. That's what I would say.
Tim Williams:
The other part is don't underestimate the power of dark social. I think this is a very, how do I say it? It's a misunderstood or even completely unknown phenomenon. That people are obsessed with the number of likes or the number of potential views, but then they don't understand how social is consumed. So if someone posts a video or a piece of content and there is some people that like it and there's some people, especially on LinkedIn and Twitter, that might then share that through private messages and then the private messages might be shared in an offline environment, and you actually don't know who's seen it at the end of the day. But if you're consistent with creating content on a certain topic, you will cut through and you will get those opportunities. So you don't have to measure everything or say, that got 30 likes rather than 150, that did five times better than my previous video. The dark social is a very powerful way of spreading out your message. So consistency obviously over time with the same message is a real winner.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, we couldn't agree more. And we know statistically, you only have to look at when you put some paid advertising behind something, the organic reach goes through the roof. That is not to do with the paid activity, that's because more people are seeing it. Then organically, looking and going and doing something with your content. What I always do with LinkedIn particularly is I will grab any URLs and I stick them onto WhatsApp and share them into various WhatsApp groups that I've got, which just isn't trackable. So nobody would be seeing-
Tim Williams:
Precisely.
Michelle Carvill:
Exactly. Nobody would be seeing that that's been shared, but actually it's gone into the hands of a very focused WhatsApp group where every single person is then going to do something with it. It would never be tracked back to that original piece of content.
Tim Williams:
Exactly. That's how real life works. But if you [inaudible 00:32:53] to senior execs and they're talking about millions of dollars or billions of dollars and they see 145 likes, they can't equate that to business value. So there's a big educational piece for marketing comms teams and social media teams to be able to present. I think there's some research from Raconteur recently over the past year when they were interviewing B2B marketing directors, that influence marketing is one of the top trends with AI. But actually the biggest challenge is being able to present this to senior management in a credible way. Because social media is still a tough conversation for social media professionals to integrate into businesses that naturally on social media if you're looking at some your property companies, you'll find that more traditional companies that they feel very... Or regulated industries like pharmaceutical.
Michelle Carvill:
Yes, couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree. Yes, absolutely. More needs to be done about that education. And that's why I keep writing books too.
Tim Williams:
Well, [inaudible 00:34:02] keep on going?
Michelle Carvill:
Those aspects are in there. We've got a whole chapter on dog social and what that really means. Okay. So, thank you so much for your time. I like to just finish up with three very quick fire questions and they are quick. They're very top ahead. It's just to learn a little bit more about you as a leader and as one of my connected leaders. So if you could change one thing in the world, Tim, the questions are quite big but just give me a fast answer, what would it be?
Tim Williams:
I think I'm going to go personal here rather than well, peace and climate change. I would love to freeze the world on a Sunday so I could catch up with my week and not be chasing my tail all the time. I think as a CEO, you really need to be able to have some time to reset. And I think life is too fast paced the moment is quite hard to have that pause time.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, absolutely. I know you listen to the Brian Solis podcast around life scale and digital detoxing and taking time out for yourself, so important for all of us that are spinning a number of plates. So, that's great, great advice there. So yes, freeze it, but you've got to make time to freeze it. Not easy, but important. Very important. And what about books? Do you read? Tim, are you a reader?
Tim Williams:
I am.
Michelle Carvill:
Okay.
Tim Williams:
When I've got time and I love reading most of business motivational.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah. Tell me about a book that you've read recently that's inspired you.
Tim Williams:
I'm currently reading Extreme Ownership. It's written by the US Navy SEALs, Jocko Willink and Leif Babin, if I've pronounced the American names correctly. It's really about taking personal responsibility and accountability. I think a lot of leaders complain about why certain things aren't going as well in certain areas. And I think if you take that as personal feedback for how you can improve and you actually take responsibility even if some of the failings haven't really been your direct management, then I think it has a positive effect. So it's really just about owning everything [inaudible 00:36:35] trying to say, pass the blame. You're downwards in the organization.
Michelle Carvill:
Yeah, absolutely. And that word responsibility is such, I mean, if we all were just more responsible, it would be a different world, wouldn't it? That word is such a powerful action. So lovely. Wonderful. I will definitely check that out. I've got about 25 different books to read at the moment because I'm judging some books as well. But I will add that to my list. That sounds right up my street. And finally, last but definitely not least, what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given to date?
Tim Williams:
Let me see. There's one piece of advice. I actually, well, I didn't get given directly, but I was at a CBI conference, a Confederation of British Industries conference. And Tony Blair was speaking actually. So Martin Broughton, the former chairman and British Airways was worrying about some media attention on some of the, I think they had some religious badges on the uniform which got a lot of criticism on social media. So Martin was saying, "Well, I don't understand how we can deal with this because we did everything possible. We were thoughtful as an organization and when it gets to getting killed in the media for this." Tony [Blair 00:37:59] turned around to him and said, "Martin, I think I would just worry about things that you can control." That's always stuck with me.
Tim Williams:
I'm not necessarily a Blairite fan. I am not giving my political persuasions. But I thought it was an excellent piece of advice because especially as a CEO, there's so many things to worry about that you can spend your whole life wiring and it can be a lonely place. So if you take ownership, to my points about the Navy SEALs book on personal responsibility, and then say, these are the things I can control, I'm worried about them and there's going to be a lot of other things that are going to happen. You've got to compartmentalize your thought process to say, yeah, there's going to be things that are going to go wrong out of my control. I've got to be able to go home in the evening and disconnect from that and not make it into your personal life. That's something that I think is absolutely critical [inaudible 00:39:02].
Michelle Carvill:
Fantastic. And what a great piece of advice to finish the podcast on. Amazing. Thank you so much, Tim. There's just been so many insights and they're absolutely gold for our listeners, so thank you so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you and conversing and thank you for your time.
Tim Williams:
It's absolute pleasure, Michelle. Thank you so much for inviting me on the podcast.
Michelle Carvill:
You've been listening to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast. Thank you to my guest and indeed thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it and indeed subscribe to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms and all episodes are also on our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts. You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site too, so be sure to check those out. So for now, from me, Michelle Carvill, your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in and goodbye. Oh, PS, if you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me, michelle@carvillcreative.co.uk.