Get Social - The Connected Leader Podcast - Kate Collins CEO The Teenage Cancer Trust

Michelle C.: Hello, and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, where I, Michelle Carvill, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how in this hyper connected digital age they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate. You can find all episodes of the podcast together with show notes via our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts.
Michelle C.: In this episode of the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, I'm delighted to interview Kate Collins. Kate has worked in UK charities for nearly 20 years, and joined Teenage Cancer Trust in 2009, initially to lead fundraising, then becoming a director in 2013. And in March 2018, chief executive. Teenage Cancer Trust has led the way in the creation of world-class cancer services for young people, providing life changing care and support. And Kate is leading a strategy to ensure the charity can reach all young people with cancer in the UK, and is ensuring that young people and their needs remain at the heart of everything the charity does.
Michelle C.: So Kate, thank you you so much for joining me on the podcast.
Kate Collins: It's a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me, Michelle.
Michelle C.: So it's interesting because I was introduced to you, we've never met, but I do follow what you talk about around on social media. And it was really through a kind of peer group on Twitter that always talk about what leaders, particularly CEOs, are doing on social, and kind of alerted me to you. And that's when I started following you. And so you are indeed a CEO and a leader that is very active on social media. So can you tell me a little bit about why you started using it, and why it was important for you?
Kate Collins: Yeah, absolutely. I think I very much felt with social media that it was going to be another job, it was going to be another task I needed to do. So I was probably a bit reluctant initially to have a professional presence on Twitter, and to kind of add more into my day. But what I would say is it's added so much, and it's not added any extra work. I think the thing that really made me want to be part of the conversation on social media was very much a young man called Stephen Sutton, who in 2014, five years ago, inspired a wave of giving to Teenage Cancer Trust that we had never seen the like of before. And he shared his experience with cancer. It's called Stephen's Story. He shared that on Facebook. He shared it on Twitter. And when he had been told he was right at the end of his life, he shared a final thumbs up. Stephen was famous for his thumbs up.
Michelle C.: That's right.
Kate Collins: And he shared that, and he inspired this wave of giving and engagement and profile for Teenage Cancer Trust. And I really, at that point, probably not during the whole time that Stephen's Story was such a viral phenomenon. We were quite occupied at that point in time. But I think really, that told me that at the time I was director of fundraising and marketing for Teenage Cancer Trust. And I suddenly realized I was missing a conversation that I shouldn't be missing, that there was something going on, on that there internet, that maybe I should be not just using socially. So was using Facebook socially. I was using LinkedIn a bit. But I really realized I was missing the conversation. And I joined in around September 2014, I joined Twitter. And I think I probably lurked for a bit, and watched what other people were doing. And then all of a sudden, off I went. And here I am now talking to you because it's a bit noisy on Twitter.
Michelle C.: Yeah. And I mean, and you are very active on Twitter. You talk about what's going on in your day. You talk about the wonderful activities that people are doing around fundraising. But you know, it's a real blend of conversation. And it feels like a very real insight to your world as the CEO of this charity. So is that something ... I often ask the question about: Oh, how do you blend your personal life and your business life? And is your social media activity managed? You've built this into what you do. Is this, I mean, it's all your authentic voice that you know that you're sharing?
Kate Collins: Yeah. It's definitely me. There's nobody else doing it. Yeah. All the bad jokes and the typos are all mine. Yeah. I think the thing for me. How do I kind of blend in, and how do I bring the personal and, I suppose, professional together? I would like to think, and I'm always open to being told by my team if it's not the case, I would like to think that how I am on Twitter is how I am if someone walks into my office, or if I'm in the kitchen having a chat with somebody here at Teenage Cancer Trust, or if I'm out at support to events. Maybe with a background in fundraising, that's probably why I went there first in my career. I love meeting people. And actually for me, the key thing around social media is the word social, and it gives me a chance to engage and hear things in a way.
Kate Collins: And I think I probably stayed back from sharing a bit about what I was doing in the day, or those sorts of things, or just [inaudible 00:05:47] to this meeting to talk to NHS England about what young people with cancer really need. I was probably initially, I was like, "Oh, will people be interested in that?" And they are, they want to know. And I think the more that, certainly, my style of leadership, and I'm not saying that I'm an expert. I think I learn every single day about what works and what doesn't. But certainly, my style is hopefully down to earth. And I'm actually being me as much of the time as is possible. I'm not very good with a very corporate message and a corporate persona, which is probably why I work at a young people's organization that's full of life and energy, because it feels like the right sort of organization for me.
Kate Collins: And hopefully, that enables me to be my whole self. And I am myself on Twitter. There are things as Kate Collins, the chief executive, that I definitely don't share on social media. I don't talk about if I have a political view on something. I don't talk about religion. I don't particularly talk about personal views that I may hold, or may not hold, because that's not relevant to Teenage Cancer Trust. And I don't think I'm ever not the chief executive of Teenage Cancer Trust. But trust is an important word, and [inaudible 00:07:05] trust people. So every single penny that Teenage Cancer Trust spends has been fundraised by our supporters. We don't have any government funding coming in, or any other sources of income. So I think it's important people get a sense of that there's a person in this organization. There are lots of them that who's a whole, rounded person who cares about her family, and cares about what I'm doing with my time, and is really motivated by our supporters, as well, of course, the young people we exist to serve.
Michelle C.: Yeah. And I love that, and it is. We often talk, and you can tell when things are manufactured. Can't you? You know there's a lot of ... I know when I was writing Get Social, and initially when I started to look at the people who I could interview at the time, I had a challenge because I would say, "Oh yeah, they're on social media. They're on social media." And yet actually, when you looked at their feeds, it was so obvious that it was more of a PR outlet than actually an authentic conversation. And I think picking up on your point about, it's about being social, these are networks. We always refer to them as social networks. They are networks of people. So you're using social media to tell the story, to engage. I notice you engage with your own team. You're celebrating the great fundraising that's going along. How have you found it as a networking tool for you in your endeavors as well?
Kate Collins: I've found it absolutely invaluable. So became the chief executive at Teenage Cancer Trust last year, so I've been with the charity nearly 10 years. I don't know where the time's gone. And then I was promoted last year, last March, to become chief executive. And I think what I found is certainly that the charity world is a very generous, kind hearted community as a whole. And certainly, as a newly appointed chief executive, I connected with people because of their social media presence. I [inaudible 00:09:06] their role modeling stuff that I think is fantastic. How are they doing that? And being able to get in touch, see what they're doing, see if they would be open to me buying them a cup of coffee and a breakfast to say, "How'd you do that? And how does this work?" I think being able to make those connections that doesn't rely on having to invest money in going to a big conference, where hopefully you kind of find someone on the coffee break, and you make a beeline for them. And they're like, "Please, just let me [inaudible 00:09:34] for something."
Kate Collins: I think that you can build relationships and just connection, initially, that means that actually, why don't [inaudible 00:09:45] something. I think, "Ooh, he was doing really clever stuff around that," or who community hinted about difficult messages that their organization in a really straightforward, candid way that struck me, that was like, that's got huge authenticity. And I really like that. There's lots of people doing things that I might've been a bit nervous about as a relatively ... I've been told I'm not as [inaudible 00:10:09] a new chief exec anymore, but I'm going to hold on to it.
Kate Collins: But really, just being able to see people at work, and you don't get chance to see that. You can't go into people's offices and follow them, they tend to kick you out. So it's really helpful for me to be able to build a lens, I think, on other people's experience. And what are people talking about? And not just people I necessarily would, I suppose, naturally be more inclined to agree with, people who are doing things that I don't agree with. I think you've got to be careful to not make an echo chamber, where you're just reinforcing things that you go, "Yes, that's what I think." And therefore I see someone else do that, therefore that's okay. I try and make sure I'm looking for stuff that's going to challenge me, as well as stuff that's going to reinforce where my instinct might take me.
Michelle C.: And that's an interesting point because to do that without social technologies would be quite a challenging task. Wouldn't it? To get so many different perspectives, so that it is a rounded view, because ordinarily, it's difficult to do that because we're in a space, and we're not in all of those spaces. Whereas the social technologies enable you, as you say, to have that lens not only on what you want to see, but also a broader lens, so that you can get lots of different perspectives. And I think without social technologies, I'm not sure how you do that at scale.
Kate Collins: I don't know how. I really haven't got a clue how I would do it at scale, or with any kind of depth to it.
Michelle C.: Yeah.
Kate Collins: And I think I said in a conversation with someone relatively recently, I said, "I cannot imagine doing my job without being on Twitter." And Twitter is the platform that for me personally works. I have an account on Instagram, I'm terrible at taking photographs. Just words are more my thing then the images. And so actually, I think if you find yourself drawn to the platform that feels most authentic to you. And it doesn't ever feel like more work. It feels like I'm doing my job when I'm using platforms. I don't use them all the time through the day. I weave it into when it works within the kind of the rhythm of my day. But I'm quite active, and yeah, certainly sending some of my family and friends who follow me feel they know an awful lot about [inaudible 00:12:33].
Michelle C.: And so how has that translated? So you're active on the channels. I love Twitter. Twitter's where I started. And I think people either get Twitter, or they don't get Twitter. I think if you get it, you really get it. And if you don't, you're kind of left wondering like, I'm not sure, I'm not sure. It's a bit Marmite, Twitter. But for me, I'm with you. I love it. So with regards to how you are, and you embracing these technologies within the organization, how is this impacting other people within your organization?
Kate Collins: Well, I think, I think at Teenage Cancer Trust, as an organization that's working with young people between the ages of 13 and 25, actually lots of the team here at Teenage Cancer Trust, so they're relatively young themselves. And they are, I think the jargony phrase is digital natives. They haven't grown up in anything where this wouldn't be the thing that they are doing. I'm at an age where I remember one of my first office jobs being to print the emails out for the organization, fax the printed out emails to various different offices across the complex, so definitely not a digital native.
Kate Collins: But I think that's where my team are. That's where my supporters, my supporters, our organization's supporters. And maybe not so much on on Twitter in terms of necessarily where the young people are that we exist to serve. But it's certainly where there's an enormous professional community of Teenage Cancer Trust specialists, nurses, and youth workers, and broader, oncology professionals, not just in the UK, but globally. So how it impacts on the organization, I think it would probably be more of an impact if I wasn't there [inaudible 00:14:21] and seeing things. So the organization certainly hasn't had to adapt to keep up with me. I think I have to adapt to keep up with them, which is a good thing. It keeps me on my toes.
Michelle C.: That is a good thing. And it's interesting that you say that it's normal. It's kind of, this is business as usual. These social technologies are embraced because it's part and parcel of what people do with their everyday lives. It's the tools that we're connecting to, that we've chosen to connect and communicate with. So why not optimize that for the work that we do?
Kate Collins: Yeah. We don't say actually, "What's your strategy for email in your organization?" Or we've got email inboxes that might be going slightly, slightly pop. But we don't kind of go, "Ooh, are you on email?" And I'm kind of like, "Well, why?" There must come a point where actually being on Twitter is not really a thing that's of note. It would be unusual to not be on it. I'm sure the channels will change, the technology will change, but I think it will be just really quite striking to have leadership that isn't actually about dialogue.
Kate Collins: And that's what I love about Twitter because it enables me to have conversations with people in a way that instinctively is how I operate, hopefully, in person or on a podcast because I love talking to people. And I love understanding what it is that's making them tick, and how they might want to get involved with Teenage Cancer Trust, or how we might better support them, or how we better thank them for what they've done, or if they work for us, how we better kind of appreciate the hard work that they're putting in as a team member.
Kate Collins: Particularly, I've found it particularly useful in my first year as chief executive because I've been doing quite a lot of recruitment to senior roles within my direct team, so within my executive team. And actually being able to say to candidates that, have a follow, get a feel for me, because the most important thing is that I think you've got to be able to click with the person that you'll work with the most of the time. And people need to be able to get a sense of who their boss is going to be. What are they like? How are they wired? And hopefully, if I'm working out loud they get a sense of that. And there might be some people who chose not to apply work at Teenage Cancer Trust because they didn't really click with what they read about me, or what they felt. Well, that's a good thing because I'm not being anything I'm not on social media.
Michelle C.: No. And I love that. I like the ... I mean, I'm a big advocate for the whole working out loud. The more that we can share and break down silos and get people communicating, it aids that kind of slicker, faster, and more collaborative approach to how we work. So what would you say that when ... If I could take you back to when you were starting, or when you took the role of chief exec, and you said, "Initially, I was a bit of a lurker. I was just watching, I was listening, which is something else that the channels enable you to do." You said yourself there was almost that element of a bit of reticence of jumping in until you find your voice.
Michelle C.: What would you say to other people who are a little bit reticent, who are kind of sitting there thinking, "Well, it's something I'm either being told to do, or it's something that I'm thinking," but there's a lot of fear? When I was doing interviews, it seems it's either, there's a fear of getting it wrong. There's the time it takes. And like you said at the outset, "Is this going to be another job to the job?" Because I'm already busy. And then there's also the kind of negative aspects of, I just don't want to do it. What would you kind of say to somebody who's kind of sitting on those fences?
Kate Collins: I would say sign up and lurk, and find people to follow. So you might have a peer who's an equivalent in a similar organization to your own or the people you know through your own professional networks. Actually sign up and follow them, see what's working for them. What sorts of conversations are they starting to have? What are they throwing out there? Are they tweeting on a Monday morning about, here's what my day's got packed with? A few bullet points and wishing everyone a good Monday, or asking people to tell them what their day is going to be like. See what happens, and maybe engage by replying to people. If you feel a bit apprehensive, I would also say, back when I joined, I was director of fundraising and marketing was the role I had then. And I think I would be putting out quite lively messages about getting involved in fundraising, and just finding this huge tumbleweed happening and be like, "I'm getting nothing back here."
Kate Collins: And you will try stuff, and nobody's going to engage with it. And you're like, "Oh, my God. Nobody engaged." And actually, nobody cares either because it's gone. It's gone really quickly. Unless you do something monumentally stupid, which I do advise you don't do. Don't kind of put everything out there. Don't be overly personal. One of my very close kind of friends in the sector always says, "Don't tweet drunk," not that I ever have. But her main rule is just don't. If you're not sure about pressing send on something, maybe don't.
Kate Collins: But I would just say give it a try. See what starts to work for you. Certainly, when I was director of fundraising and marketing, I found that promoting ways of getting involved with Teenage Cancer Trust got me absolutely the square root of zero engagement. Finding supporters who were using our kind of hashtag Team Teenage Cancer, or hashtag Team Legend, finding those and just using it to thank people, created, people go, "Oh, thank you for thanking me." You get yourself caught in a vortex of gratitude.
Kate Collins: But it was just suddenly, I was like, "Ah, there it is. There's the thing I love in person happening on my phone." I'm able to connect with people who probably when I was at a director level, I wouldn't have necessarily seen the detail of their fundraising because a different member of the team would thanked that. But actually, I was able to see that, and see their pictures of their raffles, see what they were doing. Just made that connection. And I have members of my fundraising team say, "Of course people feel really special when you do that, Kate." I was like, "It's only me." And they're like, "No, but you've got a big job. It makes people feel really appreciated, and actually really helps those, thank those supporters."
Michelle C.: Yeah. And it does because you know there's that ... We've all been there. I know when I started working all those, it feels like hundreds of years ago, in the days of telex machines, that time, there was definitely that kind of them and us scenario, the leadership team. And in many organizations, it still very much exists. You don't get to speak to the CEO, or the seat members of the leadership team. In some organizations that I spoke to, they don't really know what they do. They just kind of sit off in an ivory tower.
Michelle C.: And I think all of that, and there's lots of conversation around the future of leadership and how leadership is changing, and flatter structures, and more working out loud. And all of that is positive, but there are definitely those areas. So when a CEO, or the author of a book, or the chef of the cookery book, or whoever it is, comes back to you with something, it is a kind of like, "Wow." It's a monumental moment because they're listening, and particularly if it's an employee, they feel heard.
Kate Collins: Yeah. And I think there's also something around not being afraid of being told things that are maybe more difficult about your organization. I, particularly since becoming chief executive, but have had parents of young people, or young people themselves, get in touch and say, "Actually, that's not what that was like for me." Well, it was 140 characters. Now, thank goodness, it's 280 you can fit in a tweet. But even then, there's still not a massive amount of room for nuance. And sometimes language can be a bit clumsy.
Kate Collins: And actually, for somebody to come back to me and say, "Whoa. Did you mean it like that? Because that's not what my experience of cancer was like." And I can go, "Oh, no. That's not what I meant at all," and actually engage and go, "I'm really sorry that's a bit clunky." And so leave that conversation kind of public, and have it there. And just have other people go, "At least we're all human."
Kate Collins: You need to be able to hold your hands up if you do get things wrong or, if people are coming saying, "Actually, this isn't how it is for me." I sometimes will say to people, "I want to talk more about that. Can you direct message me?" So I [inaudible 00:23:37] my email, and I will pick back up with you, because there are sometimes conversations that I'm like, "That feels incredibly personal to that young person's experience, or that parent's experience of cancer." And it doesn't always feel like the best place to play that conversation out. But I think as a leader, you do have to be open to hear the stuff that is harder, or the stuff that when you've done something that maybe that wording didn't quite work for somebody.
Michelle C.: Yeah, absolutely. And I think in all contexts, listening, that listening into your customers, listening into your competitors, I mean, it's interesting. I interviewed John Legere from T-Mobile. He's a very social CEO. And he was saying, "I love listening to what the complaints that are happening with our competitors because it gives me great ideas for what we need to be doing." And he said, "And ordinarily, I wouldn't be able to see that stuff, but I can see it. It's right before my eyes, just by tuning in." So I think that's in the context, whether it's a sensitive issue, whether it's a commercial opportunity, there's that opportunity to listen and, and expand those conversations and take them offline if you need to.
Kate Collins: Yeah. I think for me, it performs a role. It's not the only role, but it's definitely one of the vehicles, which is about trying to be as tuned in as I can to how the organizations work, who's landing with people, what's happening. And it will only give you one lens because I'm only listening to people who are on Twitter when I'm on Twitter, so clearly it's going to give me a piece of the pie. But it's definitely as much about listening. And I think probably one of the things I didn't ... Until you try, you don't know.
Kate Collins: And when I started out, I was probably broadcasting a lot more. And it probably felt a bit more corporate-y speak. And here comes a key message about this fundraising event, or here comes this one. People want some lights and shades, and they do want to know maybe a bit about what you're doing in your day. And also, I try to make sure it doesn't take over my life kind of outside of ... Not that there is really a 9:00 to 5:00, but I don't ... I'm very active on Twitter, but I try not to be too active at weekends. I do have a family life, but I'm a person outside of being Kate, the chief executive, which is important too.
Michelle C.: It is. It is important. And that is the choice, isn't it? As to when you're tuned in, and when you're not. And I think that's an interesting point, you mentioned there as well, Kate, about the ... You said earlier, when you were doing the fundraising, from the marketing perspective, the broadcasting aspect can simply just be. And I think this is where historically social media activity has got a bit of bad press, particularly in boardrooms because there has been a lot of what I refer to as filling the feeds.
Michelle C.: People simply, "Oh yeah, we've got that scheduled in. And that's got to go, and that's got to go." And we've got our messages in there, and they're going out. And utilizing these social channels as broadcast channels, purely as broadcast channels, and forgetting the engagement piece. And it is that light bulb moment when you think, "Oh, actually, it's the engagement that works." That's what this is all about, as you said, that going back to people and just thanking them, rather than all the corporate promotional aspect that just really doesn't engage people.
Kate Collins: No. And it's really, sometimes you get real tumbleweed tweet moments, even if you think it's the most engaging piece of content you've ever created, and you just kind of get pretty much nothing back on it. And then sometimes it depends on the time of day. Sometimes it depends on what people are engaged with. One of the most popular tweets I ever did was I bought a Wonder Woman purse. I mean, that's hardly [inaudible 00:27:44]. But actually, people were going, "Where do I get one of those?" And I put an affiliate link in to raise money for Teenage Cancer Trust.
Michelle C.: Fantastic.
Kate Collins: But it wasn't why I did it. I was just like, "I love my new purse." I was just being a bit daft and a bit playful. And hopefully, just in a way that if it catches people at that moment, then I think you can really get that engagement. But sometimes stuff works and stuff doesn't. We were talking about earlier, you just need to try stuff. And I probably need to take my own advice, really, because I feel a bit reticent about Instagram at the moment because I keep telling myself I won't be any good at it. But I haven't really tried it properly, so I should probably just give it a go. Shouldn't I, Michelle?
Michelle C.: You should. And Wonder Woman always goes down very, very well on Instagram. So you know I'm preparing you now. I have a little Wonder Woman, the Wonder Woman way, and it's a little plastic thing. You press her, and she gives all these messages, Wonder Woman messages. And sometimes I do share those on Instagram, and they always get great engagement on the stories. So you've reminded me, I must get Wonder Woman out a bit.
Kate Collins: Always.
Michelle C.: Yeah, always. She always works. So before I move onto some little questions that I'd like to ask you. Just what would you say is your biggest learning so far? Is there anything that you wish you'd known at the outset that would've made life better, simpler, easier?
Kate Collins: Ooh. I think just that I would get so much back from being engaged in the conversation on social media. I think it made me better, even when I did by job interview to become the chief executive. So I think everyone's a genius with hindsight. But I think I wish I'd known how much richness of connection and an insight it would give me because you're never actually on your own, which can be a real downside of social media, but it can be such a huge benefit if you're leading an organization, or a team, or you're just curious about knowing more. It's all there, and people are very willing to share.
Michelle C.: Yeah. I mean, I agree. And that's great advice. So I like to end our podcast with a little bit of learn about the leader. And I've got three questions for you. Very quick fire. Some of them are quite, a couple of them are quite big questions, but it's just whatever comes front of mind. So are you okay if I fire these at you?
Kate Collins: Go for it. Who knows what I'll say? But go for it.
Michelle C.: Who knows? Here we go. So Kate, if you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?
Kate Collins: Oh my gosh. That's a whopper. I would love everyone to have great self esteem. I think if people all felt better about the brilliant people that everybody is, everything else would fall into place.
Michelle C.: That's wonderful. I love that. And which book have you read recently that's inspired you?
Kate Collins: Oh. The book I love, and the book I go back to, and I'm going on holiday in two weeks and it's on my pile to take with me because I know I need to top it up, is The Happy Manifesto by Henry Stewart.
Michelle C.: Oh, brilliant. Great book.
Kate Collins: Yes. So easy. You can dip in and out, and it is always rather than ... There's always something I get from it. So I haven't read it recently, so I might've just cheated, but I'm going to read it really soon again.
Michelle C.: Good, good. Well, I'll make sure the link to that is in the show notes as well. And what's the best piece of advice you've been given to date?
Kate Collins: Oh, it's not about you. Yeah, absolutely. And it's really easy as a leader, or if you have a big job title, which I would say mine probably qualifies as.
Michelle C.: Yep.
Kate Collins: It's not about you, it's about the organization. It's about the people, and actually, it's just not about you.
Michelle C.: Brilliant. Well, I love you, and that is that. I love that. And that's a great way to end the podcast. So Kate, thank you so much. There's been so much insight in there, lots of real world and very authentic activity that you share, and indeed advice for others. So sincere thanks for being on the show.
Kate Collins: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed chatting.
Michelle C.: You've been listening to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast. Thank you to my guest. And indeed, thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it, and indeed subscribe to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms, and all episodes are also on our website, carvellcreative.Co.uk/podcasts. You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site too, so be sure to check those out.
Michelle C.: So for now, from me, Michelle Carvill, your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in, and goodbye. Oh, PS, if you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies, and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me, michelle@carvillcreative.co.uk.