Get Social - The Connected Leader Podcast - Polly Barnfield OBE, Founder and CEO, Maybe

Michelle: Hello and welcome to the Get Social Connected [inaudible 00:00:06] Leader podcast where I, Michelle Carvill, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how, in this hyper connected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate. You can find all episodes of the podcast together with show notes via our website carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts.
In this episode of the Get Social Connected Leader podcast, I'm delighted to interview Polly Barnfield. Polly is the founder and CEO of Maybe, a platform that eliminates the gap between how consumers use technology and how businesses are able to connect with them. Using AI to enable any organization to turn social media conversations into insights and actions and deliver results. Polly's also the founder of Give and You Live, the platform that has raised over 10 million pounds for a wide range of charities. And in 2012, Polly was awarded and OBE for services to Philanthropy.
So Polly, thank you for being on the podcast. It's really wonderful for you to be here.
Polly: Great to be joining you. Thank you Michelle.
Michelle: So, let's get started. I actually came across you on a conversation on Twitter around social, and digital, and leadership. You're clearly out there on social, active on social. Can you tell me a little bit about how you started and how that journey has evolved?
Polly: It is absolutely that, it's a journey. I can remember, back in about 2007, when the company I was running then which was a different digital platform, the team said to me, "You need to start using Twitter." And I can remember saying to them, "Gosh, look, I don't answer my email. I don't get through to my inbox." Just a side note, I have 135,000 unread emails at the moment. So, I really pushed back and said, "I don't think I want to get involved." And eventually, I started to.
Ironically, when I exited that business called Everyclick in 2014, I then started to think about what we were going to do next and we began to build the Maybe campaign which tackles the concept of how the customer journey has changed.
Michelle: Yes.
Polly: And we very, very quickly understood that, fundamentally, the consumer, if you want to talk to people, people that are in charge, people hate it. 14 years ago, social media was not a thing. It exist. It didn't exist at all.
Michelle: No.
Polly: But now, 3 billion of us are sharing, talking, discussing stuff, every day. I think it's some staggering fact, like at any given second, there are a 100,000 bits of stuff, it's just a phenomenal amounts of stuff.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: So, if you consider, we move from a broadcast society, to one where we are all broadcasting. So, if there's a leader, you choose not to [inaudible 00:03:25] that conversation, you're putting yourself in a very elite club that, you know, you're not in touch.
Michelle: No.
Polly: What I find, what I [inaudible 00:03:34] in social is that I don't actually have a strategy, I behave as I normally am but the social is just an extension of what I do.
Michelle: Yes.
Polly: So, if I'm interested in something, I talk about it and people find you. You're an example. If we're fundraising, I'll talk [inaudible 00:03:52] and people will find you. If you enter into a bar or get a few drinks at a party and say nothing, you'll have a miserable time. I think it's the easiest way to think of social which is, you choose the bars you want to hang out in and you choose the people you want to hang out with. But, if you don't say anything, it won't work for you.
And today, I believe more than ever, you are judged by your social footprint. People check you out. 15 years ago, you go to Google and find everything, and Google is still the source of [inaudible 00:04:28] stuff. But Google, you only see what people want you to say. On social, you get under the hood of the person. And the business that we do through social is extraordinary. I think just to go into that, we run a completely virtual team. So we run, [inaudible 00:04:48] and we don't have an office. We meet in nice places, collectively. We stand up every day on Slack and our office is Slack. Otherwise, we never, ever had a more collective team.
Something very interesting about connecting people through platform and us all bing online, it's extraordinary.
Michelle: It is. I echo that. We gave up our offices, probably, almost 2 years ago. And again, everything is. And that was really driven by the team saying, "Can I work from home more?" And moving away but not wanting to leave the business. And we're all in the UK but we do manage our business similarly on Slack, Trello, Whatsapp as well and between those technologies, we're super connected. So, tell me a little bit more about, because it's interesting that you say that Polly, about feeling left out if you don't say anything and I know you're a big advocate, like me, for listening on the platform as well. And, of course, that's how the Maybe platform enables as well. So, tell me about your views about... yes, talking about and having that conversation and if you don't say anything, but there's also some real gold isn't there in the listening piece?
Polly: Oh yeah. Definitely. You talked to many people about socials so I don't know what to say, I don't know what to show, [crosstalk 00:06:19] oh that's not right, waiting for a video. Well that's nonsense because, fundamentally, particularly as a leader, you want to be you. And you have an opinion, you have people you need, and there's already a conversation out there about whatever it is that you're thinking about or whatever it is that you're doing. And the most efficient way, in my view, to improve your opinion or your ability to dive into [inaudible 00:06:46] or your ability to connect with the right people is to join the conversation. So, you know, why would you ignore it? And I think, it's a really interesting point, that social is in it's infancy in many ways. It's-
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: It's an enormous gift in behavior. It's an enormous shift in communications. And it's often seen as something that lives in the Marketing department or the PR department.
Michelle: Yes.
Polly: And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Michelle: It is.
Polly: There has to be a, sort of, transformative shift in the way people think about because everybody's living in a break room about who they are or what they like. If you listen, you can connect in extraordinary ways because suddenly you meet somebody and you can talk to them in a way that you could never do before. Use well and you can connect and reduce timescales doing all sorts of things in incredible ways.
Michelle: It's interesting, I mean, I'm writing another book at the moment and I've just been doing some research around networking, because I think we forget that social media platforms are effectively. We, once upon a time, we called them social networks. We tend not to refer to them that way anymore, you know, we talk about social media as a collective. And it was interesting when I was researching into the networks and there was a lot research that came up around dating and relationships. And a lot of the technologies like Match.com, and Tinder, and all of these technologies as devolved. What they were finding was that people that met via these digital channels, they actually had more in common and they were more likely to stay together. It was interesting for me, looking at it from a different perspective, because I thought that's exactly how you feel when you do connect into the right conversation with the right people. It's almost like you've gone into the networking scenario and you know exactly who you need to speak to already because you're able to see exactly what they're about and what they're talking about.
Polly: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that you can feel, frequently. I'll give you two different scenarios. When you meet somebody from, what I call, a business relationship perspective that you've been chatting to through whether it's LinkedIn or whether it's Twitter, whatever it is. When you meet for the first time, you're not meeting for the first time. It's just
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: An extension of the relationship you're already in. So, you know, the old-fashioned traditional sales funnel is smashed to bits in that sense because you've gone through all of those previous qualifiers in a very different way. And when you [inaudible 00:09:32] both decided that this is not a waste of time and that you want to do business. On the other side, if you've looked at it from an employee engagement perspective, and I think this is where the value piece has been missing-
Michelle: Me too.
Polly: I have a new start up, it's now 3 and a half years old. We have never had an office. I've employed quite a millennial workforce and if they wanted... two of them, one of them had a fancy working in Vancouver and I said, "Then off you go, it makes no difference to us." She did a stencil of it and I said, "When you get back, it's fine." And she's gone and working there and her output is phenomenal because she's [inaudible 00:10:18] same thing. It's very empowering, it means we can employ. Our team's growing fast and we can employ the right people...
Michelle: Yes.
Polly: From anywhere.
Michelle: Yes.
Polly: If they're the wrong people looking for us, they won't play on this team because it's very, working through virtual environment, is very transparent? Much more transparent than being in an office because you can actually see [inaudible 00:10:46]. We've had unbelievably low staff turnover, we don't seem to have to recruit because people find us.
Michelle: No.
Polly: The mindset, it's so transformative. Yeah, it's amazing.
Michelle: And you being visible, and contactable, and transparent as the leader of that organization, is a valid point, isn't it? Because a lot of leaders, and as much as I know we talk about the change in leadership and there are lots of changes happening and many of that changes being driven by technology, but there's still a lot of structure within organizations and a lot of hierarchy within organizations. And we talk about them becoming flatter, but there still is a lot of hierarchy where the leadership team are just not accessible to the every employee and so, if there's not that conversation, there's not that accessibility, and visibility, and contactibility, then we can lose trust. It can really disengage the employee. So, what's your view on the role of the leader's responsibility, I suppose, in that visibility to the organization?
Polly: Now, at the risk of being extremely controversial, I'm going to give you something you [inaudible 00:12:16] So I believe that, let's take it vertical, let's take retail. I think the question you're asking me about the staff, is the same problem that many businesses have with their customers too.
Michelle: Yes.
Polly: Which is, the siloed structure that business runs in has meant that, social media in particular, is siloed into... quite often the very junior part of the business. The leaders don't think that it really matters. They haven't actually made that conscious decision to think it doesn't matter, it's not for them, they don't think in that way. It's not part of their psyche. It's not their fault. It's just because it hasn't become [crosstalk 00:13:08] an important thing.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: No, it hasn't [inaudible 00:13:10] and what that means, is you create a structure where what the organization says on social, is quite synthetic.
Michelle: Yes.
Polly: And that means you don't connect with your customer and, equally, you don't connect with the workforce who could change that for your customers. But, also, you're not listening to them. So this whole business of listening which is, side note, exactly what mainly has been delivered, exactly why we built the platform that we have. It's not about, you know, I go to so many meetings where all our team is worried about is, "What do we say?"
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: Well actually, almost the least simple thing, is what is your customer saying? What is your team saying? And then how do we improve our results because of it? And, you know, social media started 14 years ago, some platforms were created that enabled you to share your content and actually, we're still in the nursery school really. We haven't moved on. You know, we need to [inaudible 00:14:11]. We need to think about this a bit more wholistically and if you just stop and think about what social enables, and use it as you would any other business tool, things can happen extremely differently. Very fast.
Michelle: Yes. I mean, I agree. And it's interesting that customers, because we often think about the external facing to the customers, but of course our employees are our internal facing customers. It's treating everybody the same, isn't it? And the social technologies enable that reconnection. They enable that two-way conversation. I remember when I was writing the first book years ago and the reason I got into social media, I was so intrigued with it, was with my marketing hat on but with my consumer focus hat on and thinking, "Oh this is going to be interesting because brands and organizations, now, are really going to have to have a conversation with real people." You know, and real people can really have a conversation and [inaudible 00:15:20] back in real times, what's going on in their lives. Back to the brands. And that's going to cause a lot of discomfort because people don't want to hear it.
Polly: Yeah but that's the really interesting thing Michelle. They're not hearing it in many, many cases.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: If the [inaudible 00:15:38] marketing [inaudible 00:15:38] is wearing away and gazillions of pounds thrown at it.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: Actually what happened, is that, you get to the point where the customer, you know... if you have them interested, the first thing they'll do is go chat to their mates on social about what they buy. What decisions they're making. Now, if you're not listening, you've actually got somebody to the point where they want to buy a house, a sofa, thinking about a new sister... somewhere there'll be a breadcrumb about what they're doing. And if you're listening and you engage in that conversation with them, they'll continue down that funnel. But for 98% of businesses that are not listening, you're as good as slamming the door in their face.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: They have told you that they are interested and that, for me, is the biggest disconnect exists. And it's almost as though, the consumer's gotten bored and has run off the pitch and everybody's still playing footsie without the ball at the [inaudible 00:16:38].
Michelle: Yeah. [inaudible 00:16:39]
Polly: [inaudible 00:16:39]
Michelle: Yeah, I love that. I love that analogy as well. And so you, obviously in your work and your world, you're seeing this frontlined. You would hope thing were shifting but you still see a lot of that disconnect. I mean, I still hear it. There is still that... it's almost like the curse of knowledge. You think, surely people still don't think it's all just about posting pictures of your breakfast. But, there are still some people that think about it that way. And, likewise, I think these are hugely, empowering resources in so many ways. Breaking down silos, giving voice, finding interesting things going on within organizations and outside of organizations to drive innovation. So, what would you say that has been your learning over the years? Because you have been involved, you know, within social technologies for a number of years. What learning have you taken from it, personally?
Polly: I think there are a few, sort of, big realizations that from me that are, when you stop and think about it, quite extraordinary. So, our platform, we build around the retail vertical. We now sell many other verticals but we built it around the retail vertical and particularly looking at High Street agendas as it sounds today. And one of those, sort of, very interesting things we've discovered was that, you know, 90% of retail still occurs offline. [inaudible 00:18:11] of fine retailers have huge amounts of cash tied up in their physical properties.
Every single piece of social media that they put out, barring a few, talks about their website.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: And nobody has connected. Nobody is thinking like a customer.
Michelle: No.
Polly: The business structure, as it stands today, is not designed to serve a social. Customers, they're used to social media. It's not just a customer service tool-
Michelle: Oh no.
Polly: It is their experience.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: And so, I think until leaders start to bring it into their lives so they can think differently because it's not simple. It's not a simple saying, "Oh, we need a different person running it." Or something, or...
Michelle: No.
Polly: It's not that simple. The way we have addressed this is, is by creating a platform that enables businesses to listen to what their customers are saying. And enable every part of the business to see that.
Michelle: Yes.
Polly: Because actually, if you can listen, you start to realize how you need to change and every organization will need to change differently. They needed one result, you know, you only need a charity to suddenly demand a big grand because they were better at engaging with their customers. You only need a retailer to have a cue outside a store and think, "[inaudible 00:19:50] that happened through Facebook."
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: Or you only need somebody to have an insight that actually my customers are talking about trainers. I don't sell trainers. I [inaudible 00:20:00] those. And that's real actually. We had a retailer that had no idea their customers talk about trainers. Added trainers. It's crazy.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: But, it's a mind shift of, well if I can understand what my customers are talking about, couldn't I serve them better? And that's all a social is. And if I can understand what my team is talking about, could I help them work for me better? Ask one of those two questions and you pretty much got the answer to what a leader should do, in my book.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: And if you don't [inaudible 00:20:32] want to know and you want to run a, sort of, dictatorship well then fine, but I think the world has changed.
Michelle: Yeah. That's interesting, isn't it? That, you know, we talk about the speed of change as well, Polly, isn't it? The world is changing and it's continually changing and like we talked about, these social technologies, they're not brand new but they're relatively new, as structures of which to define business around. They came onboard as, kind of, marketing tools to let us talk to the customers but now it's becoming, this, you know, the whole transformational opportunities within organizations and the leaders aren't necessarily keeping up pace with that. There's lots of studies that come out. I track the digital IQ study every year and leadership is falling behind with regards to digital transformation because of the pace of change. What would be your practical advice then, for somebody, for a leader particularly, who's thinking, "You know what? There's something in this. We're not doing what we need to be doing. Or we're doing it but it's stuck in the marketing department and I've got no idea what they're doing, but I just know there's budget and we're filling the feeds and we're putting stuff out." What would you say to a leader to how to, you know, to just dip their toe in the water and to get started with it, who might be feeling fear, overwhelm, it's not my thing, you know? What advice would you give to somebody who's feeling like that?
Polly: I would suggest they ask questions in a slightly different way. You need to ask your teams, "How do our customers feel?" Or try, "What are our customers saying about us?" And "What do our customers like best in our product range to gain debt today?" [inaudible 00:22:34] sales but actually, you know, on an emotional piece. And if your teams can't tell you or if they said, "I need to run a survey." Then something's missing from your fabric because if you're investing in social and you can't answer those questions, it's more than likely a one-way channel. It's more than likely that you're just using it as a sales tool. Which is fine, but think of the wealth of information that you're not engaging in behind the scenes. And ask yourself, would you rather survey and not listen to the answer? No. Well, social media is, fundamentally, a 24/7 survey that's going on all the time. So why would you not listen to it and then respond accordingly? It can inform you about everything: your product, your team, your different locations. You know, it will directly respond to what's online. If you've got half your business not preforming well and you listen, I guarantee you'll find it.
Michelle: And also listening to what... I interviewed John Legere, the CEO of T-Mobile, when I was writing 'Get Social' and one of the things he said that informed him the most, I mean, listening, out of everybody, listening was the top thing. When I said the top five things I learned from interviewing the leaders, they all said, "The power listening." And he mentioned that he spends his time listening to what customers are saying about his competitors. So, that you know what, that we've got all this competitor insight. He said, "I personally, as the CEO of this organization, can see with my own eyes. I don't need the analysis, I can see what customers, people are saying." And he said he won't be every customer. He said, "But I can see enough to give me enough of a barometer as to which way we need to go. Where the unrest is and what we could do to fill those gaps." And he said, "It's there."
Polly: Michelle, he smack on. I think the key thing is and once you start listening, make sure your whole organization can hear it because they'll all hear something different through their lens. Listening is not something you give to the team that is running social, listening is something you give to every part of your organization because they've all got a job to do. If it touches the customer or it touches the product that's been created for the customer, there'll be a gem in there that' relevant to them and it should be part of business. You wouldn't run your business without an account package.
Michelle: No.
Polly: I think the biggest block is social belonging to a department.
Michelle: Yes.
Polly: Because actually, I had meetings with some developers yesterday. And, pretty smart developers, and they are looking at and thinking about life from a very different perspective where they're actually getting their informants on sight. [inaudible 00:25:35] to say, we're going to share the development of each project. So rather than just showing the beautiful Brazilian [inaudible 00:25:43] pictures at the end of it. They are authentic and say this is where the project and this is what ended every day.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: [inaudible 00:25:50] journey. So, story-telling through, or whatever it is, but that, from a very simplistic point of view, that's about sharing content but in a very authentic way. It's about being real.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: If you didn't listen to me and I didn't listening to you, this podcast wouldn't happen.
Michelle: Yes.
Polly: And I think every business leader has to ask themselves the same questions. Is our organization listening to itself? And is it listening to our customers? And then replying in sort of way that will engage.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: And it's [inaudible 00:26:26] What is the campaign? And how could it serve the customer better? And the campaign will come out of that.
Michelle: It's almost as if social media, the word, is the wrong word, isn't it? It's almost... it's as if, this keeps coming through actually, this social media is enormous. It's got huge possibility and it's got all this potential, and it's such a core golden [inaudible 00:26:54], if you will, to an organization and how it operates. Ye, it's not seen that way and that's because maybe, it is just a communication of the word. It's because people are hanging their own views around social media means because when we think about social media, we have to think about Twitter, and Facebook, and you know, we think of platforms. Whereas, actually, it's more of an endeavor of an activity, isn't it? Rather than, oh it's just being on Twitter or being on Facebook. It's the actually action rather than the platform.
Polly: 100%. So, I think there's some wonderful generalizations that you hear. The young aren't on Facebook anymore, which is dying. No, they're not. Both those statements are completely wrong. I think also recently Chat, Messenger [inaudible 00:27:50]. Will social change? Absolutely, it will change. Will it go away? No.
Michelle: No.
Polly: [inaudible 00:27:57] adapt and much more. If you want to survive and you want to grow, business have to become more agile and have to adopt a very different philosophy to communication.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: And because it is no longer a static broadcast channel. The majority of businesses, to be fair, they're seeing the platforms as in Twitter or Facebook as way of dealing with customer complaints. That's a [inaudible 00:28:24] channel. And they're being very formulaic in what they publish through it, but you know, that's not how the consumer works.
Michelle: No.
Polly: And you want the consumer and you want great people in your organization. You've got to start to treat them and empower them with the tools that they use elsewhere because it's as much part of your service offering as how your organization looks from the outside. You know, you wouldn't put your front door at the back, if that makes any sense.
Michelle: No.
Polly: Social media delivered that, if that makes any sense.
Michelle: Yes, it does. It does, it makes perfect sense. The consumer is in control, [inaudible 00:29:13] and our beliefs as consumers are changing or influenced and there's so many studies.
I read a recent one, recently, coming out social media is the most influence resource that we turn to for purchasing decisions. So, we're more influenced by what's going on with social media than what's going on with any other media. And that looked at direct mail, looked at press, looked at trade press, it looked at websites, it looked at comparison sites, and it was social media, the most influential resources for the customers. Yet, it's not necessarily the most influential platform for the retailer. So, there's a disconnect.
Polly: There's more than a disconnect, [inaudible 00:30:04] sorry, that's a notification ping, pardon. That's a social notification.
Michelle: That's okay!
Polly: It's almost, I come out of meetings and come out of boardrooms that I think, "Am I going mad?" Or is there just a chasm of understanding?
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: I think it's one of those things that if you don't, I think there are many leaders that potentially, maybe, understand that something is happening. And whether they're kidding themselves that they've ticked the box and somebody else is doing it, in which case, they are completely wrong.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: Or whether they [inaudible 00:30:44] stopped to think but it's, you know. Would you, if there was a room of 10,000 customers in front of you and you had the opportunity to stay on the stage and invite some of them up to tell you about your business, would you or would you not go into the room?
I spoke to a journalist yesterday who told me that Facebook was dead. Twitter [inaudible 00:31:11] thing and the young don't really like social media anymore. [inaudible 00:31:16]. It's those terrible, sweeping generalizations-
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: That are misleading. Instagram's great! But it's not the only social channel these days [crosstalk 00:31:28]. It's still such a spectacularly immature marketplace. Where, I feel sorry for social media teams and businesses because then I think they are stuck in a terrible place. Show me your ROI or show me what you've achieved. It's bigger than that.
Michelle: I know.
Polly: [inaudible 00:31:52] It's a learning of epic proportions that need to happen very fast. Those that get it, you know, look at Jim Shark. A brand that went from nowhere to [inaudible 00:32:03] and they did it because they engaged with their customers through social.
Michelle: Yeah.
Polly: You've got that in many other walks of life. In many other businesses. It's not rocket science. If somebody said to you, "Would you like to go and talk to your customers?" You're going to say yes. And I think that's my message for leader which is, don't make it a silo, make it a culture. Think about it as an opportunity to listen to your customers on a daily basis. If you choose to not listen to what they want to say, woe by you and I think you can look at the [inaudible 00:32:36].
Michelle: Fantastic Polly. I love that. So that's a wonderful way to kind of summarize, you know, if I was to say, what would you say? You've said it there and that's very clear and I wholeheartedly support your view on that. So, I'd like to end, Polly, with a few quick-fire questions. It's away from our social conversation and still being social but, a little learn about the leader star questions. So it's just 3 quick-fire questions, very top of the head. Are you ready for these?
Polly: [inaudible 00:33:07].
Michelle: Okay. If you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?
Polly: I would say, to use social for good. I'm fed up of hearing that social swings elections and makes bad stuff happen. And I would like to see more businesses using it to make their business better. Sorry, I know that's social but that's wrong.
Michelle: That is fantastic! I will allow that to go through and would join you in that campaign. Which book have you read recently that's inspired you?
Polly: I'm a terrible snacker on content. I'm afraid that I'm so addicted, that I love, and I've probably got attention deficit disorder, but I love snacking. So I love, if I've got half an hour with poor connection, I'll snack on content and I'll find people that I think are tremendously interesting and read their latest posts. For me, the ability to understand different people's views, they surpassed a whole book at the moment. I read books on holiday. [inaudible 00:34:11] mindless [inaudible 00:34:13] just let me turn my brain off. The deal with my husband is that one weekend on holiday, we try to find somewhere without Wifi. And if there is no Wifi, he'll make sure he's hidden my charger when I get there. [inaudible 00:34:26]. I'm afraid I'm a bit [inaudible 00:34:29]. So, I'm a snacker.
Michelle: Okay.
Polly: I love, consume other people's views.
Michelle: Fantastic! And so, last but not least, what's the best piece of advice you've been given to date?
Polly: Empower your people, listening to your people. Just, be you.
Michelle: Yeah. That's wonderful. So, Polly it's been really great. I've thoroughly enjoyed talking to you and shared many of your viewpoints. So, you know, it's wonderful to hear what's going on within the work that you're doing and within the conversations you're having so thank you so much for sharing those insights and indeed, your view and advice to fellow leaders.
Polly: My pleasure. Great to speak to you Michelle. I love what you do. Thank you very much!
Michelle: You've been listening to the Get Social Connected Leader podcast. Thank you to my guest and indeed, thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it and indeed subscribe to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms and all episodes are also on out website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts. You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site too. So be sure to check those out. So for now, from me Michelle Carvill, your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in and goodbye. Oh! P.S. if you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me michelle@carvillcreative.co.uk.