Get Social - The Connected Leader Podcast - Brian Solis, World-Renowned Digital Analyst, Anthropologist and Futurist

Michelle C.: Hello and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, where I, Michelle Carvill, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how in this hyper connected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate.
Michelle C.: You can find all episodes of the podcast together with show notes, via our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts.
Michelle C.: In this episode of the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, I'm delighted to interview Brian Solis. Brian is a leading digital anthropologist, futurist and best-selling author, who studies the impact of disruptive technologies on business, society, and culture. In his new book, Life Scale: How to Live a More Creative, Productive and Happy Life, Brian tackles the struggles of living in a world rife with constant digital distractions. His model for life scaling helps readers overcome the unforeseen consequences of living a digital life to break away from diversions, focus on what's important, spot newfound creativity and unlock new possibilities.
Michelle C.: With a loyal online audience of over 700,000 people, his work makes him a sought-after thought leader to leading brands, celebrities such as Oprah and Ashton Kutcher, and over 1000 start-ups around the world.
Michelle C.: Brian, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Brian Solis: It's my pleasure. Thank you very much for the invitation.
Michelle C.: I have been following you for a long time. I've read most of your books, I haven't yet read Life Scale, but it's coming through the wonders of Amazon. Of course, a lot of your work, and a lot of the work, I used to use some of your comments in quotes and things in presentations I was giving about adapt or die, and around digital disruption, and that organizations really have to make change. Really, how technology is challenging behavior and creating opportunities.
Michelle C.: It was interesting when I came across what you're doing with Life Scale. I know as an author myself, a lot of the books I've written over the years, I say a lot, three, I'm writing my fourth, I'm always solving a problem. I always feel like it's one to many, rather than solve this time and time again, I acknowledge a problem and I try and solve it through writing the book.
Michelle C.: Tell me, how you've got to Life Scale from digital disruption, through to digital distraction.
Brian Solis: It wasn't by choice. If I could be honest with you. I think as someone who has written and studied digital Darwinism over the last couple decades, the ... Also, the irony of helping launch a lot of the devices and networks and apps that we all use, in advising many of these startups over the years, it was the last thing that I thought would happen in my world, which was to become a victim of that distraction. I've studied it, I've informed people how to stay above it and how to best utilize technology in ways that were going to be most production for business or personal life. Then, there I was, trying to write my eighth book about the very topic we're talking about now, and I just couldn't get past the proposal stage.
Brian Solis: It was a really debilitating experience. Long story short, I did a lot of soul searching, because at first, I chalk it up to just being overwhelmed or maybe having writers block. Then in that soul searching process, I had started to see patterns that were across the board, in terms of my research, my writing, everything. My relationships, everything was just all over the place in real-time. That ability for critical thinking, that ability to dive deep, that ability to stoke creativity, had ... I don't want to say vanished, but it wasn't the same.
Brian Solis: My brain wasn't firing the way that it used to. That's when I realized that, something was wrong and had to ... Still didn't lead to Life Scale, but it did lead to a new focus in research, to figure out what was happening in my life, to try to figure out how to fix it.
Michelle C.: That's interesting, because I'm writing a book at the moment, and I put sometimes, some of my, oh, I'm just going to scroll, I'm just going to take a break and have a look at what's going on, on social media, down to procrastination. Actually, I've had to get really disciplined with myself and say, just turn the phone off, turn every distraction on, and really get focused on writing, or doing one thing for a long time, which used to just be the norm. We really have changed our behaviours.
Michelle C.: Is that what you've found as you've been exploring and researching this?
Brian Solis: Oh my goodness. We all do reach for our devices. I'll just say, probably too frequently, but it's just normal. It's just the new normal, which is why I didn't think I had a problem. Probably, also, why most people don't think that they have a problem, because it's just how we live life, but the reality is, is that most of us get about 200 notifications a day. When we reach for that device, when we allow ourselves or we give ourselves to those notifications, they pull us out of a head space, and also just this physical space and this mental space, and this emotional space we're in, so that we can deal with that. Then we come back to the task at hand, and we're not fully in the place where we were when we left it.
Brian Solis: Then the same is true for the attention that you give to all of those notifications or all of those distraction. We're getting a sliver, a semblance of you. Now, that leads to, and grooms us into this behavior of constantly moving and constantly doing all of these things, at the same time. Why that is dangerous, is because we're not giving our best to everything, but also, because what's happening behind the scenes is that, it's rewiring our brain and rewiring our bodies to accelerate, to keep up with all of that. Which is why we do it more, because we're getting good at jumping around, but we're not really multitasking, we're just switching tasks, and that's where things get super interesting, is that when you rewire your brain and your body to do these things, it seems normal.
Brian Solis: We convince ourselves that this is what life is all about, and we're convincing our self also that we're giving our best in those moments, when we're actually not. When we're all like this, it becomes a real big societal issue. If you just think about it, if you've ever asked someone how you're doing or how they're doing, the common answer we get is, busy, because we're all busy, because that's what our relationship with technology is teaching us, it's teaching us how to just live constantly busy, task switching, running around, sharing our lives, consuming the lives of others. That's where it starts to hurt us.
Michelle C.: Yeah. I suppose it's about, because I suppose some of the work that I've been doing particularly in the more recent years, is around how social technologies can really help organizations connect. To break down silos, to really help leaders connect with often very disengaged employees. There's a huge cost to that disengagement around productivity, because people don't feel that they really know what's going on.
Michelle C.: From a communication perspective, these social technologies can be really useful in breaking down silos, connecting people. That's, I suppose, in a rich way, or an enriched way. What we're talking about here, is that, that kind of inability to balance it. Is that what you found, that we're becoming all one way, rather than this balanced approach?
Brian Solis: Yes and no. The hard part was that, I'd never realized that any of this was a problem, until it was a problem. I think a lot of people in ... Especially in my research, they feel this constant anxiety. There's a lot of struggles with happiness. There's this semblance of creativity or this fallacy of it, I should say, in that every tool and every device that we have makes us express things in the most beautiful and creative ways possible, with filters and high res cameras, all of the networks that show that we're living our best life.
Brian Solis: The real danger of it is not knowing the struggles that we actually have. Productivity is a metric of an effect, but not the problem. I think what's happening deep down within us is, it's unfortunately, not like any, or not unlike any substance abuse that's out there. What's happening is, your body is having these chemical reactions to these moments, and we've talked about things like dopamine or oxytocin, there're six different chemical concoctions that happen. Those are designed with intent by the developers, to stoke that, to make you feel and make you do something, to help you ...
Brian Solis: It's why they become so addicted, because attention is what they have. It's a commodity. The more of your attention they have, the more that they could monetize it.
Brian Solis: What I don't know that they realize, it's called persuasive design. It's meant to manipulate behavior. I don't know if they realize though, that they were actually doing in the long-term, but it's, if you're drinking, if you're taking your favorite drug of choice, whatever it is, your body is having also a chemical reaction to that, and the more that our bodies become dependent on that chemical reaction, the more we want to have it.
Brian Solis: Productivity is one measure of the problem. The other measure of the problem are things like anxiety, stress, depression, self-esteem. One of the things that I studied in concert with this research was the effects of Instagram and Snapchat on a woman's definition of beauty and self-esteem. After interviewing women from 61 to six, after a year, it was incredibly disheartening to hear the struggles that they didn't even know that they were dealing with. Every interview was pretty similar in that, the conversation started with asking some questions, and of course we got these very funny or normal quips in return. After a while, there was always a click that happened. He's asking me these questions for a reason. Now that I think about, they all turned from research sessions into therapy sessions, that we're living life so quickly, and we're keeping up with all of this stuff, so, so fast, so much, every single day, trying to keep up, that we don't even actually realize how far we've fallen.
Michelle C.: Yeah. I suppose that context is slightly different, because there are tools that we would ordinarily use, shall we say, in the business environment, that stay in the business environment. That's our work tools. They're over there. Then when we have our leisure time, we switch off. We're not using those tools. We're in a different space. Traditionally, it's always been that way. Whereas, these tools, these social technologies, are tools that we initially adopted outside of the workplace. We've moved them into the workplace. They're almost secondary, being adopted in the workplace.
Michelle C.: Now, it's just pervading everything that we do. All of our lives. There is no, that's what I do at work and now I'm out of that, so I can switch off. It's kind of like. We're always on with them, aren't we?
Brian Solis: We have challenge, we have on one side, as employers, the devastating effects of those distractions on our work. Not just productivity, but also the calibre and the quality of that work. We're prone to more mistakes, we're not as creative as we could be. At the same time, you're bringing that emotional tug of war into the workplace as well, where we're not feeling as happy as we could, and that starts to affect morale.
Brian Solis: Add to it then, companies trying to modernize the workplace, and we're creating these much more open spaces, which are also much more prone to analogue distractions, and also things like Slack or Microsoft Teams, which are essentially streams for work, which you bring out the same type of behaviours that you would in your personal lives.
Brian Solis: We're creating actual greater distractions in the modernization of the workplace. Now, the reason why I care about this so much, is one, I had to fix myself. This stuff over years, we're talking about ... Gosh, Facebook opened up to the public in 2006, Twitter launched in 2006, the iPhone is over a decade old. We're talking about a decade of behavioural transformation and emotional transformation without actually, number one, acknowledging that this is happening to us so that we could do something about it, and number two, not even understanding how much we've changed. That struggle every single day to find that happiness and find that productivity, find that centre, find that core.
Brian Solis: Where I felt like I could have an effect on this was, I pressed pause on the other book that I was trying to write, and pressed pause on a lot of my work, so that I could get to the heart of the matter and reverse engineer exactly how we were being manipulated, how these design techniques were changing us, how we were succumbing to them, and how we were making decisions differently about our lives, about what we share and what we consume and how we live, based on those modifications.
Brian Solis: Then, understanding what do those modifications do to us. Our brains, our body, our spirit. Then, make the decision, once you know what you know, then what do you do about it, because I still had to fix my life. The effects of which, I had damaged my world, including my real world relationships, were mind blowing, that I had completely missed this stuff over the last 10 years.
Brian Solis: It's pretty, in hindsight, it's a small miracle that everything was still moving along. It wasn't moving along as great as it could be, but when everybody's living life this way, then you get to see this, it's almost like a freeze frame of sorts. I tried to solve the problem doing the things that are pervasive everywhere, where people are talking about digital detox, deleting apps, putting the stuff away, meditating, practicing mindfulness, embracing yoga. I didn't embrace yoga, but that's on my list of things to try.
Michelle C.: I'm a yoga teacher, Brian, you've got to embrace yoga.
Brian Solis: Yes. Everything, calm apps, productivity apps, they all treat the symptoms. What happened is, when you've changed your core, and when you've changed your operating system without realizing it, you're making these decisions on this evolving centre of reference. You're continually moving in these directions without actually realizing that you're doing so. That challenges everything. Your values, your purpose, your mission, without even realizing it.
Brian Solis: Then, I realized, one of the things isn't just about taming technology or saying oh, I'm going to go back to the way things were, because that's a common misperception of it. Technology isn't bad. How we use it today is bad, just like alcohol is, or whatever it is. If you abuse it, you're going to have issues.
Brian Solis: What I wanted to do was understand then, now that I know what I know, how can I use technology to not go back to where I was, but to go into a much better place, and to keep growing in the much better place. We're the first generation, regardless of age, to live in a world where we have access to anything we want. We have access to information, to people, to connections. The world is a much smaller place, and it's a gift, it's just a choice of how we decide to do it.
Brian Solis: When we open our mind to see it for its potential, and its promise, then the whole world could change. For example, I started to realize, wow, knowing what I know now, why am I living life based on the standards of success and happiness that my parents passed down to me and their parents passed down to them? It seems like it just doesn't seem intuitive today. Especially with all of the potential that we have now with technology.
Brian Solis: I set out to fix my life by living through essentially, what would happen if you created a guide for a modern life, and to put yourself on the path that would allow you to see things differently, to do things differently, and then continually improve as you go through the Life Scale journey. It was hard, because there isn't a toolkit that's all together for this, but I can tell you that I take that book with me everywhere I go, and I'm constantly reading and rereading, because once you put yourself on a path for growth, you start to see things you couldn't see before. Then you start to see then, that your path can change, even from where you started from.
Brian Solis: That is the beauty of all of this stuff. You start to put tech in a place that you use it to the benefit of where you're trying to go, and how you're trying to live.
Michelle C.: Yeah. I love that, because I don't think I've ever really positioned it about thinking like, we are the first generation. You're right, regardless of age, we are this last, particularly the last decade, has ... We're the guinea pigs, aren't we? I think it's interesting, because one of my daughters just last night was watching a film, and it was a black and white film in the '50s, Joan Crawford, Beast. She said, "Everybody's smoking. Everybody's smoking. I can't believe it, can you imagine? Now, you just don't see that." I said, but that was then. I suppose we didn't know then, did we, what we know now.
Michelle C.: We're going to look back on this decade of social media and say, oh my goodness, look at what they were doing, and how addicted they were. Let's hope that's what we look back to, Brian.
Brian Solis: Yeah. I remember watching old black and white movies and thinking as a child, I can't believe that they didn't have colour back then. One of the things that I find too in this debate is that, there's a natural propensity to not see what you and I are talking about. We don't acknowledge the problem, because to acknowledge the problem, means that we have a problem. That's the hardest first step in any form of recovery.
Michelle C.: Yep.
Brian Solis: When you and I talk about the first generation to live this incredible distraction, a lot of people will argue, there was TV, there was radio, there was the original cellphones. All true, they've all affected and impacted our world, but not like this. Not when something that we use ... We spend on average, anywhere between four to five hours a day on our phones. When you're exposing yourself to that great extent of intentional manipulation to your brain and your body, of course it's going to have an effect.
Brian Solis: Now, it's a matter of, what do you want to do about it. Thank goodness with the work of Tristan Harris, and he's exposing the magician's secrets revealed, in a lot of these design techniques. We have Instagram flirting now with removing likes and view counts from the public standpoint. We're starting to move in the right direction. Again, these are just symptoms that we're dealing with.
Brian Solis: We've changed our core. We've got to figure out what we want our core to be, so we know where to move forward. I had no intention of writing this book. I just wanted ... I thought could just stay on my digital Darwinism path of research, but now, this is my cause. My cause is, helping those who know what life was like before all of this stuff, manage it to be great with it, and then also, our children who know life only as this, and that in their world, this anxiety, this depression, this struggle to keep up with everything and everyone, that that is not normal either.
Brian Solis: The disconnect between parents and children is that they don't see the world the same way. Yet, we expect children to follow in our own footsteps when in fact, this world now needs us to change, in order to lead them differently and greatly. That's now what my purpose is working on both of those different generations and bringing everybody together into a new path, where we can move forward to manage this modern lifestyle.
Michelle C.: Yeah. I think it's that consciousness, isn't it, that kicks in, that when you're in this space, because the digital technology, it's not going to go away, but it's about how do we manage it, how do we hone it, how do we give ourselves permission to ... It's almost like taking back control, because it's almost got out of control, and being out of control is normal. I agree with you wholeheartedly about disconnection, that there's a lot of disconnection. We've almost become disconnected from ourselves.
Michelle C.: As connected as we are, the irony is, we're less connected with who we are. Who we really are, and with other humans, because the connection is, it's almost become a bit thin. Thin or shallow. It's not that, there's no depth.
Brian Solis: You just nailed it. I think that was one of the first things that I was surprised, when I started to look at my own life, was the shallowness of a lot of the relationships, the shallowness of a lot of my thinking. Even though we'd have still great conversations, they weren't as deep or as creative as they could be. In hindsight, you see a lot of things. It was okay, because on all sides, the idea of a relationship is that, you get out of it what you put into it. When everybody's putting in the same shallow engagement, then it's this new normal.
Brian Solis: Where the problem is so threatening, but also so personal, is that our core has changed. We are making decisions in our life based on the standards that we see through that small screen, every single day. Yet, most of the things that we see aren't real. All of the things that we place value on aren't real. Children today that are worried about followers and likes, we talk about shallowness, they're making decisions then, based on what they do and who they connect with, in ways that are going to propel those numbers to make them feel better about who they are.
Brian Solis: That can't in any way, shape or form, grow into a positive foundation. This is why you have, and I'm sure we'll start seeing numbers in terms of depression and suicide-
Michelle C.: Oh, going crazy.
Brian Solis: Absolutely. Again, it's not about putting the phone away, it's about recognizing that the value that we place in how we live a digital lifestyle is off. Which is why I spent a significant ... The book is only really the first maybe chapter or so, giving you the, did you know this is happening to you, stuff. The rest of it's really just human. It's getting us to open our eyes again and our hearts again, to question ourselves. Because we have to make decisions differently, about who we are and who we want to be, and how we get there.
Brian Solis: We have to first take a step back and say, this is who I am now. It's not who I thought I was. How do I get on that path? Who do I want to be? It's a healthy exercise, and it's an exercise that I'm pretty sure I'm going to go through several times.
Michelle C.: That takes quite a bit of courage sometimes, doesn't it, to, I talk about this, in my other life, I am a yoga teacher, so I talk about people really getting to know the truth of who they are. That means sitting with yourself. That means really questioning yourself. A lot of people aren't up for that. A lot of people are quite happy to be removed from that. On the surface. It does take a bit of courage to step into that space, or it takes a disaster.
Brian Solis: In my case, it was a disaster. In fact, this is true for life in general. I remember in my work around corporate innovation, which is a random aside, I had once said, that companies change in one of two scenarios. The ah-hah moment, where they had that great idea, or the most often, the uh-oh moment, something bad has happened. Once you start reacting because something bad has happened, you're in a whole different place.
Brian Solis: I decided to spin my uh-oh moment into a positive sense, but my purpose was different at the time. I was trying to finish the other books.
Michelle C.: Yes.
Brian Solis: Just trying to fix-
Michelle C.: The irony.
Brian Solis: Exactly, try to fix life to get that book out, only to realize that the more I uncovered and the more I learned, the more I realized, I can't be the only one with this problem. Maybe, just maybe, I could have an impact on the world. I'll tell you, one of the things that, just to be honest, one of the things that I was surprised by when the book came out, was how difficult it is to get people to read it. How do you sell a book to people who don't believe or even know or recognize or even think about that they're distracted? It's almost heresy for me to talk about stuff like that.
Brian Solis: Then you have other movements of people who are saying, let's rid ourselves of these things and turn it into this hip, cool movement, of digital detoxing. They don't need the book for that, because they have their own idea of what the problem is, and what the solution is.
Brian Solis: I was surprised at how difficult it is to get people to be open to the idea that their life could be so much better than it is today, even with technology in it. It's been an incredible amount of work. I've had to verticalize the story of its impact. This is where things are getting really interesting for me, in that, I'm working on certification programs now, because the work is bigger than just the time I can give to it. Also, it's a gift that I wanted to give to people. It's not the Brian Solis brand, the Life Scale brand is written for people. It's theirs.
Brian Solis: The certification program is hopefully going after teachers, and parents, and churches, and coaches, so that in their own communities, they can teach the Life Scale program of starting to understand at a much more human level, hey, let's talk about what's going on in your life, so that we can put all of us on a path to prosperity, however you want to define that.
Michelle C.: Yeah. What an interesting journey for you.
Brian Solis: Yeah. It's all new. The verticalization of it is exactly that. Parents, for example, there's an article in the New York Times the other day, about parents hiring coaches to help their children play.
Michelle C.: Oh.
Brian Solis: Someone asked me, what do you think the qualification is for a coach in that regard? I said, probably none, because they don't know actually what's happening inside of the child. Parents aren't necessarily the best role models either. Any time I take my daughters to the playground, it's crazy how many rambunctious kids are running up the slides as my daughters are trying to go down the slides, while their parents are right there on their phones, not seeing anything or everything that's going on around them.
Brian Solis: The Life Scale story's going to be very different for that scenario than it is going to be for a coach or somebody who's struggling with productivity at work. That is where this verticalization, at least that's my hope, is trying to teach people directly where they're feeling or causing the problem.
Michelle C.: Yeah. You're right, it breaks my heart when you see these things, but it's a reality, isn't it? It's just become normal. It's quite sad. I can't wait to read the book, Brian. I can't wait. It really chimes, it really sits with my message of, to be really connected, you have to be connected to yourself. You have to get connected to that human, back to who we are, and the core of us. It really resonates with me, and it's wonderful that somebody like you is putting a body of work out like this, because there is that almost heresy, here you are, for years and years and years, leading this digital disruption, and the future of what's coming with digital.
Michelle C.: It's hardly surprising that this is a challenging piece of work for you, and that engagement with it is challenging. This is your gift, isn't it? This is clearly what you've been driving towards.
Brian Solis: Yeah. The irony is, not just in being part of the rise of all of this stuff. You've been there for a long time, alongside of me, and you've seen ... The common theme of all of my work has been the humanization of it, and really focusing on people. That's one of the reasons why I studied and practiced digital anthropology, which is really trying to take the human side of the story, so that we can steer tech in a very positive direction.
Brian Solis: What I didn't see though, which was by design, was exactly what happened. The other irony is now, I have to use all of these channels, and jump into the fire, more than I was before, in order to help spread the word and the book's message. That has been an incredible test of Life Scale, of the practice itself, which is, staying strong as you're diving into the fire. I've had to do something that I've never done, which is hire a team of support to share the responsibilities of doing this work, so that it's not all on me.
Brian Solis: Previously, everything has always been on me. Which is probably part of the problem. The second is, the certification, the coaching programs. That's something I've never in my life, would have seen myself investing in. I can't wait for that.
Michelle C.: Yeah. It makes total sense when you think about it, because like you say, this is a big message, this is a big movement, this is a C change, isn't it, about how people can take control? I can see, you're going to have ambassadors, I can't wait to see it, and I've already signed up for more information about the program. I think there will be people who get it, that just think, we need to shift. Here's some resources.
Michelle C.: It makes total sense. Brian, thank you so much for sharing all of that wonderful insight with us. I like to end with just three very quick fire questions to learn a little bit about my guest. Are you okay with that?
Brian Solis: Sure, absolutely.
Michelle C.: Just to round up. Some of the questions are pretty big, but it's just top of head kind of answers, as you would get to. Here I go, are you ready?
Brian Solis: Ready.
Michelle C.: If you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?
Brian Solis: This. What I'm working on.
Michelle C.: Yeah. I suspected you might say that, it's good. Good, easy answer, but very valid. What about books? Which book have you read recently that's inspired you?
Brian Solis: Oh my gosh. So many, because I had to do so much.
Michelle C.: A lot of research.
Brian Solis: So much research on this. I will tell you that there's a commencement speech, it's not a book, but it just really, really stood out. It's a commencement speech by the actor Matthew McConaughey, that was game changing. I put it in the book, it was just so good. It was just so good. It really harmonized with the whole idea of living life to the standards of success and happiness, that aren't our own. That ... It was really ... I'm smiling now just thinking about it.
Michelle C.: Oh good. I will make sure that that link is in the show notes. What about advice? What's the best piece of advice you've been given to date? I know, some big questions here.
Brian Solis: There's a gentleman in my life, his name is Dan Post, and back in 1997, I started working with startups and doing a lot of ... What turned out to be groundbreaking work around digital, and how to launch companies differently in a digital world. He said something like, "The struggles that you're having here within this organization, of trying to get people to change how they work, in order to support your work, is probably going to take away from the potential of the work you're trying to do, which, maybe think about starting your own company around it, so that you could explore and experiment freely."
Brian Solis: I did just that in 1999. That was the beginning of all of the digital stuff that you've seen in my work, and that was the best advice I ever got.
Michelle C.: It's interesting that that statement that he gave you is where you are now, with this challenge with Life Scale, isn't it, to a degree? He just said those words, I thought, oh, hang on a minute.
Brian Solis: Indeed.
Michelle C.: Good advice always keeps coming round and round again. That's wonderful. Thank you so, so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed our discussion, Brian. Long may we continue to chat digitally. Tell me how other people can find out about the work Life Scale, is there a site they can go to?
Brian Solis: The book has a site. It's lifescaling.me, and it's where coaches and also readers can go for more information. If you're interested in following my work as well, beyond that, it's briansolis.com, and I think I'm @briansolis on pretty much every network.
Michelle C.: Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. I'll make sure that link is in the show notes as well.
Michelle C.: That's it. Thank you again. Huge thanks. I can't wait to share this with everybody.
Brian Solis: Thank you so much.
Michelle C.: You've been listening to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast. Thank you for my guest and indeed, thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it, and indeed, subscribe to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the podcast on all the usual platforms, and all episodes are also on our website, carvillcreative.co.uk/podcasts. You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site too. Be sure to check those out.
Michelle C.: For now, from me, Michelle Carvill, your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in. Goodbye.
Michelle C.: Oh, P.S., if you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies, and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me, michelle@carvillcreative.co/uk.